AIBU to feel disheartened by the lack of support and the presence of a crab bucket mentality among some women on here?

[NameChangeAsICouldBeOverReacting]

Is it unreasonable for me to feel disheartened by the lack of support and the presence of a crab bucket mentality among some women on here?

When I first joined Mumsnet, I hoped to find a community where mothers and women could uplift and support each other on a variety of topics, especially those concerning parenting, finances, and the cost of living. However, I've noticed a trend where instead of offering encouragement, there's no support and a race to the bottom mentality.

Shouldn't this space be about rallying together to support everyone in the UK? We should be annoyed at the government for creating the cost of living issues and we should push for them to make things better for future generations.

Recently, I read discussions on the cost of living, where some individuals seemed unable to empathise with those facing financial struggles. Some suggested that just because they did it that it shouldn’t be a problem for those on above average salaries and it is simply a “choice”. Even suggestions of just “relocating to cheaper areas” without considering the complexities of individual circumstances, simply because they did it several years ago. It's disheartening to see dismissive attitudes towards those who are genuinely struggling, whether they're living on a tight budget or facing high living costs in the South due to personal ties.

If we, as women, continue to tear each other down rather than lifting each other up, how can we ever hope to bring about positive change? Let's try to foster a culture of support and understanding.

If you can't afford to live in your chosen location and buy the essentials of life, there are only certain options open to you. Accrue debt in the hopes your situation is temporary, increase your income through extra work, ask family for help, cut your spending to the bone, down size or move to a cheaper area. You might not fancy any of them, but your list is still longer than that of a person who has already done all those things and is still struggling. So other than give you the options in a nice gentle tone, what do you want people to say?

Women are not a homogenous group and we have different opinions on all kinds of things - including what kind of government support.

I think sometimes people in dysfunctional relationships don't realise until they post on here and get a barrage of responses telling them it isn't normal and that their partner is abusive. The kick up the backside is exactly what is needed. It's called tough love.

Fortunately, mumsnet has helped some women leave their abusive partners, and I hope it continues to do so.

It was a much more supportive site years ago when it was much smaller. Then I noticed that the first few posts tended to dictate the way the wind blew until a few more posts came in with different thoughts.
Nowadays there are a far wider range of views right from the start. Much more extreme views at both ends. And you are right op, those extreme views can be quite vicious in the way they are expressed. And others follow suit.

It used to surprise me the way that others thought and viewed things. Now it horrifies me, as some views are utterly quite ridiculous and yes, quite horrible in the way they are dismissive and uncaring. You can disagree and give constructive criticism, which is how it used to be. Or you can be downright rude and unsupportive, which is far more common now.

As I said, it’s not like the olden days when most people wanted to help and support each other, even if your opinions differed. You are quite right op.

Do we know what a crab bucket is yet?

There's some women I vehemently disagree with and some men I absolutely agree with. That doesn't mean I don't support women when necessary.

Pointing out the differences serves to create division. Someone else on the thread made a point about depression. 'why are you depressed? What have you got to be depressed about?' Doesn't help the person feeling depressed. It doesn't make other people with depression feel less depressed. There are differences in wealth and the cost of living crisis has driven a fairly clear path between those with 'give' in their budget to absorb the increases and those that have no. But pointing out to someone who has a £2k mortgage who's struggling to pay it that you'd love to be on a wage where you could be given a £2k mortgage/love to own your own home or whatever the 'othering' is, doesn't support the person with the circumstances they find themselves in. Some people have safety nets and others don't. But right now people are struggling and telling them others have it worse doesn't help them. If you don't think they deserve help, scroll by. Don't stick the boot into someone who's struggling. Even if you think it's daft they took on a £2k mortgage. Telling them that, kicking them when they're already down. That's not empathy, humanity, kinship. That's kicking someone when they're down. Someone falls over of their own silliness/clumsiness/making. You absolutely can walk on by. But don't kick them. People need less kicking right now.

I do believe in a sisterhood and I will happily support women.

However, I do not believe women are a monolith and I don't blindly support women just because they are women.

MN is a microcosim of life - there are people with a wide variety of opinions, and even some arseholes, its true.

Wanting MN to be some kind of vitrue lifting echo chamber would be bad for everyone. Its up to us, especially in this online/social media age, to develop our own filters, our own red lines and form our own opinions. this applies to realising we can each of us weed out unhelpful opinions & we can choose not to give attention/oxygen to certain posters.

Same here. Hours of fun trying to decipher an endless stream of apparently random series of letters just so I can make sense of a new thread.

Alan Turing would have loved MN.

It's a discussion forum and as such it's made up of individuals with a range of attributes, opinions and voices. I don't regard it as a 'community'. It happens to be mostly women but that doesn't mean I agree with every one of them or even most of them, or share their ideals or values and I'm not keen on cliques or 'group think'. Some individual contributions are nasty, aggressive, bigoted, ignorant or whatever and some threads or individuals annoying and I would dearly love to see the back of them. If only we had an Ignore button - we can't hide individuals as far as I know but can hide whole threads.

Women in distress, or men for that matter, if they post about a problem or dilemma, I think are generally treated with consideration or at least honest advice intended to help - and should be - but there's a chance they might receive some responses that are careless or cruel.

YANBU op.

The level of ‘harsh’ and the lack of any sort of empathy from many on MN in recent years is real.

It’s like a race to the bottom with a massive dose of bitterness. I imagine the harsh, cutting, bitter comments are people who wouldn’t actually say those things out loud in real life to people but let it all flow on here as it’s an anonymous forum. Like a cathartic release for all their own problems.

I also think the way SM encourages an “us and them” mentality, a ‘pick a side and stick to it’ mentality has left a lot of people unable to see another’s point of view at ALL. Many people now can’t see the shades of grey when discussing something.

A lot of the time, those posting those suggestions are doing it with a tone of “well, that’s your fault and your choice, so suck it up” and trying to kick the OP whilst they are down, which isn’t offering help or support. Then you have people well “I could do it in my day when houses were £10k and you just need to make it work” and delivering their comments with a chip on their shoulder as they fail to understand how different things are nowadays.

Suggestions are helpful, but it’s the delivery which is the issue.

I agree with you OP, but I knew this thread would trigger a lot of dispiriting baying of 'just because I'm a woman doesn't mean I have to be nice' (in many cases proving the point beautifully) and snarling about 'be kind' type sentiments.

IMHO it's not about #bekind or about the pressure on women specifically to be kind (which I do agree exists, way too much.) It's as though a lot of people have stopped caring about being a decent human being and having a bit of compassion/empathy for others. Or am I just getting jaundiced from too much AIBU vitriol?

So many people seem to either have had empathy/emotional intelligence bypasses or are actively out to be nasty. It's depressing and unconstructive.

Quite honestly I think MN would be a better and more constructive space if AIBU was axed, because AIBU's the main viper pit, but also the main cash cow, so that'll never happen. #cynical

Yes.

You’re not wrong at all OP. I’ve noticed an almost gleeful tearing down of other women, pack mentality, a real “oh boo fucking hoo, pull yourself together you special snowflake” mentality in a lot of responses on this site.

Some PPs have characterised it as ‘tough love’ and ‘handing their arse to them on a plate’ when people need it. Sorry, no. That reeks of ‘oh I just tell it like it is, me’ when we all know what sort of insufferable person says that about themselves. Some people on here are just mean and unpleasant and respond to people just to be combative. It’s a shame.

Where do you stand on the #bekind philosophy, @NameChangeAsICouldBeOverReacting ?

Crikey. Did that warrant biting that person's head off? (Metaphorically speaking)

See, this is always my biggest problem with people who go on about being supportive and kind. They are often rude and sarcastic themselves.

And if you are ever critical of the tone of responses on some posts, you’re hounded by the “don’t fucking tell us to #bekind” brigade. It’s considered an automatic ‘gotcha’ and shutdown of any discussion.

The OP is a bit 'why can't we all just have a nice cup of tea together, talk in soft gentle voices and be kind?'

The world isn't like that. People aren't like that. Everything is tougher, harsher and more brutally honest than that. We just pretend it isn't.

I think also, people are actually getting a bit fed up of the soft, be kind, can't-do attitude culture of the past few years.

MN is not a Kum-By-Ya style support forum.

Its a discussion forum and in normal truthful discussion you will have people disagreeing with each other.

I actually find it depressingly misogynistic to say “Women are allowed to come together to talk but only if they are nice and non-conflicting”. I’d rather risk a few upsetting comments than be told I have to STFU and tow the party line

Should we try to empathize with women who just aren’t as lucky as ourselves? Absolutely. Stop and think about the posters situation and tailor your advice to where they are in their life.

should we stay silent when we see women making really obvious and fixable mistakes? No. That isn’t being supportive and it isn’t helping them.

We do not help women by coddling them and telling them that they can do no wrong. We don’t help them by telling them that they have no responsibility for their circumstances. Sometimes we even have to be honest and say that they have been handed an absolute shit situation, but life is hard and unfair and here are some difficult steps they can take that will help get them out of it.

every one of us who has had to struggle and fight and work to overcome something that then offers advice to another woman on how to do the same isn’t doing it to be cruel. Real support is honesty. Real support is mentoring. Real support can get real results.

I was thinking the same! Ah well you really do learn something every day

MN is not a Kum-By-Ya style support forum.

Maybe they could have a Kum By Ya message board within the site though?

I play a real mean version of it on the bagpipes.

The discussion here is so binary. It’s not like the only options are flaming people OR a #bekind tea party. You can give people honest feedback and still do it in a way that doesn’t lead so many people to delete their own posts because the replies are so vitriolic.

Someone's sex is irrelevant as far as I am concerned, and I will support anyone who needs it. If they are being an arsehole, I will tell them so.

WTF is a crab bucket mentality anyway?