For DH to insist on vaginal birth not ceasarean

[Anguish]

Asking for a friend. Why would he care either way? She has a low pain tolerance and doesn't want to experience the most painful thing that can happen to a woman.

EDIT: He's absolutely lovely and basically a perfect partner in every conceivable way, which is why it's slightly out of character.

@babytakemehome

Forgive me, but this is starting to become exasperating.

Women in favour of caesarean have been yammering on here about their right to have completely unnecessary major surgery for free via the NHS because NICE guidelines state that they are entitled to it and they must have a choice to put themselves and baby at greater risk of death to avoid vaginal tearing and incontinence.

And so I put up data directly from NICE because clearly it is the oracle…. And now you have a problem with it because it doesn’t fit your narrative.

Either you agree that NICE are a reliable source or you don’t - you can’t have them to suit purposes for CS on NHS and then disregard them because you don’t like their health data.

You think rational thought is exasperating? Oh dear. Not only have you committed the fallacy of a false dichotomy - claiming that the NICE is either a 'reliable source' or not - you've also completely failed to see the contradiction in your position. And have demonstrated an astounding ignorance of statistical methods.

It is you who disagrees with the NICE guidelines yet, at the same time, put up a one-pager from the same organisation seemingly in support of your position. That an ELCS is completely unnecessary, etc etc.

However the statistics that you posted claimed no such thing. It is not data 'directly from NICE', i.e. a major study commissioned, performed and controlled by the organisation. It was derived from a series of studies - all of which have different methodologies, sample sizes, etc and condensed into single figures.

The reason NICE gives women a choice is because there is no conclusive evidence either way. No large scale study has been performed taking a majority of the relevant variables into account, if that's even possible. If, this 'reliable source of health data' that you claim to post definitely exists, and it had been conclusively proven. Why would they give people a choice?

Putting statistics all over the place doesn't prove anything. You have to dig deep to understand the variables, confounding factors, etc. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

BTW, I'm not 100% pro-section. I'm still early in my journey and could change my mind still. Despite what you claim I have no 'narrative'. All I have done is explain my reasons for my current leanings, and, multiple times, emphasized that the decision making responsibility lies between women and their medical teams. Who explain the pros and cons of both methods.

I do not claim any expert medical knowledge and so have not deigned to tell people what they should and should not be doing. Unlike you, who keeps making the arrogant presumption of knowing what surgery is 'unnecessary' despite not being medically trained or qualified. It is you who is actively trying to construct a narrative that women are choosing C-sections for frivolous reasons and so shouldn't be given the choice, putting in statistics to support that and getting angry and, erm 'exasperated' when questioned. It is you who claim that women are choosing heightened risks of X and Y with these ELCS while completely failing to acknowledge that risks A and B from a vaginal birth may be less bearable, or the existence of other extenuating factors. All of these will have been explained by the people qualified to do so, to them. They are not making decisions based on the opinion of randoms.

You are not medically qualified nor, from the way you use data even capable of basic statistical reasoning. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as you so aptly demonstrate. You're not as clever as you think you are... maybe take some basic courses on critical thinking and the use of statistics in constructing a coherent picture of the true situation.

*not series, a selection of

I find guys like this "insisting on a vaginal birth" fucking creepy.

Sounds awful! I wasn’t referring to anyone specifically but it was language used on a hypnobirthing course I did so I was in for the shock of my life when I went into labour! 😆

Quite. Surely if one can insist on a home birth or can insist they are not having an induction or even a bloody free birth (😵‍💫), someone else can insist on an epidural or elective or whatever. I know there are times when a home birth is totally out of the question of course.

A c-section is still painful. Its her choice as its her body; pros and cons for both and nobody is to say she won't end up with a section anyway. Good luck to your friend.

Fully agree. And thinking women ought to be forced to do things they don't want to do with their vaginas is a rapey ideology. Nobody who thinks that should be around anyone vulnerable.

I didn't have "unnecessary surgery" on the NHS. I paid for it. I was taking no chance that someone would try to make me give birth vaginally. Best money I ever spent. It cost less than a couple of pricey holidays, or a kitchen extension, something many people would no qualms spending that amount of money on.

My work involves assessing women in childbirth personal injury litigation. In 30 years I have seen hundreds of women who gave birth vaginally. I was never going allow anyone to make me give birth vaginally, whatever.

I really don’t blame you, - your body and your choice.

I’m sorry you had that experience. As a fit and still fairly young first time mum, I always intended to have as little interventions unless necessary thinking my pregnancy and birth would be straightforward - but I was always open to them if medical advice. Turns out increasing reduced movement in my final weeks and constantly being in triage meant I needed my first intervention: an induction. It came with risks of course but the risk of not having one and stillbirth obviously far outweighed these other smaller risks. There was not a chance I’d refuse one in these circumstances. (Tbh, I don’t think I would if I was past term either, when they tend to be offered more commonly. I’m very much of the belief that I’m not the medical expert but obviously respect that women can make their own choices about their unborn babies, births and bodies.) My baby was also in distress during labour so another intervention came: this time an EMCS. I never want to be in this position again and it is more likely I will be due to my pelvis and cervix so I will have an elective if I have another baby.

Context shapes every woman’s subsequent birthing choices as it has with you and me but women should also be able to have any intervention they want - or indeed none - just because too.

You come across as if it's some sort of badge of honour to have suffered giving birth and that every woman should suffer.

For women that state "I never want to give birth vaginally"...you are aware this is what women's bodies are physiologically designed to do?

Getting pregnant is one of the biggest risks women ever take with their physical and mental health. Women need access to objective advice and to be able to make informed choices on the basis of the balance of multiple risks, as they apply to them and their child, rather than at population level.

The nonsense here on elective sections is quite something. Most elective sections are a response to risk factors which can be anticipated in advance, and are chosen to avoid increased likelihood of adverse outcomes (rather than to keep calendar appointments at school as suggested by a PP).

@babytakemehome

Bloody hell @babytakemehome I do have relevant qualifications, but I take your point on board and appreciate you taking the time to respond.

My issue is that there is a double standard here. On the one hand people are adamantly saying that NICE are an authority not to be questioned, and on the other questioning their data (which as you point out is right to do across the board) if it presents information contrary to their position. I agree with you that what NICE provide is inconclusive, so therefore it shouldn’t be presented to shut down or confirm beliefs either way for largely unqualified people - who should be listening to the advice of medical professionals who known their individual case and all factors involved….

People should not be basing their decisions off of a discussion forum and they certainly shouldn’t be pressured by partners or anyone else. I have said that consistently, while having my own opinion on CS that is not medically advised.

I have given birth vaginally 4 times (including my daughter who was stillborn at 29wks) I can’t say I’ve ever experienced a c section but when I was told the devastating news about my daughter my instant fear was “will I need to have a section” even though giving birth vaginally in that situation was horrid aswell (slight more pain then the others but more so emotionally) you have to do what you feel comfortable with, everyone will have different experiences, all of my births were absolutely fine vaginally, first one I had th epidural the doctor wanted me to due to my sons heart rate dipping and he had a poo inside of me! So it meant making pushing a tad bit more easier to do so..

my second son I literally went into labour at home and went to the hospital when I was around 6cm, only had gas and air and he was born 3hrs later! I look back on his labour and actually really enjoyed the experience tbh!

my first daughter sadly passed away so had to be induced and give birth vaginally which naturally wasn’t a pleasant experience and was very hard.. however I look at that time as having chance to bond with her and make as many memories as I could while I had the chance to.

and second daughter (due to the complications with my first daughter) had to b induced a few weeks early.. this was painful (they say being induced can be more painful then not doing so).. the pain was worse then my first two births but I had gas and air and managed to get through it.. with each birth afterwards I was walking around absolutely fine within an hour or so..

I did the school run the day after giving birth to my second son! Everyone has different experiences however mine vaginally have all been absolutely fine during the birth and afterwards.. I admire people who have c sections though because of how brave they are! It was genuinely my worst fear when being pregnant incase I needed to have one.. everyone has different preferences.

I don't have to do everything I was "designed" (evolved really obviously) to do. I don't run across the African plains hunting antelope either. I only had one baby, not the many I may have had without modern contraception. I might be a vegan despite not having evolved to be one (I'm not, but some people are). I wasn't the main carer for my baby from soon after he was born, my husband was. I had choices which have not been/are still not available to everyone. That doesn't make them wrong.

Really? 🧐I don’t think that thought crossed my friend’s mind - a consultant surgeon who said she would always have an elective regardless of how uncomplicated her pregnancy or previous birth experiences were. I think she’s a bit more knowledgeable about physiology than most of us.

You’ll hear lots of “but it’s nature” on threads like this. Yes, of course it is and many women give birth complication-free thankfully but nature does not always go to plan and advancements in modern science has made childbirth less of a risk for many women and, in some cases, even meant that they and/or their babies are alive.

@Jo58 But in cases of elective c-section purely due to convenience, that has absolutely nothing to do with "nature not going to plan". Quite the opposite, in fact.

Designed is an interesting choice of word. I'm not sure how many people believe in a designer these days.

If there was a designer (there wasn't) he lost concentration a bit when it came to the female genital tract! (I say he deliberately, given what we know of his work).

Where do you draw the line at convenience, out of interest, if you have one at all? Tbh, I’ve never heard of someone wanting one to attend an event and can’t imagine an obstetrician saying “Ok that’s fine and a totally valid reason”. Surely there was something else. But, having experienced labour for days then an EMCS, I can see why a woman will just go straight for the elective second time round. Especially if they have a young child at home. Is that convenience in your eyes?

My obstetrician didn't ask for a reason. As it should be for everyone.

@Jo58 Apparently the woman's right to choose trumps everything else these days.
A lady on another thread a while back said she opted for a c-section because she wanted to be at home when Wimbledon was on the TV.

Just reading that in the 19th Century, death in childbirth was estimated to occur at the rate of 85/1000.

And also ONS data showing an average newborn girl born in1841 was not expected to see her 43rd birthday.

Speaking of which, there is also the question of the role of the pelvis in both walking and childbirth, and changes to its structure over time, that need to be considered alongside trends in maternal age.

But, whatever, go nature.🤔