Toxic femininity?

[JordanPeterson]

If men & women are equal

Then it stands to reason that toxic femininity is a real phenomenon

However it does not seem to be widely acknowledged or permitted to be discussed in society

As a 40 something woman have experienced this phenomenon & read of it here

Examples that spring to mind include:

• Culture of "cliques" which often lead to bullying & ostracising behaviour
• Using tears as a manipulation tactic
• Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman
• Judging others for different life choices (Eg: not having a career, being "broke")
• Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas
• Focus on appearance (Eg: minimising the risk of botox/plastic surgery to others, reluctance to form friendships with those they perceive as "daggy" - see cliques)
• Obsession towards drinking wine as a personality trait

Now many women do not partake in such negative & socially damaging behaviours

& most of these examples are of toxicity towards other women which is interesting

But that doesn't mean that toxic femininity is not real, does it?

Are we just our own worst enemy?

AIBU to find the culture of toxic femininity worthy of discussion?

daggy? Sophie Simpson write this?

I think we have different opinions on what being a feminist is. For me and most people I know it’s about anti-sexism, ensuring women and men have the same opportunities and combating discrimination. It doesn’t mean men and women are the same.

Toxic femininity doesn’t apply to those points you listed, it’s about behaviour that enforces gender based stereotypes or societal norms. For example the encouragement of women to be subservient to men and passing this down generations.

Some of your examples show you displaying toxic femininity. Talking about affairs as if it’s completely the fault of the woman, being the other woman, seemingly letting men off the hook for their actions and putting the blame on woman, rather than the man who had the affair in the first place.

You can be critical of other people without displaying gender toxicity. Saying all women who are disagreeing with you are toxic again shows your gender toxicity of shutting down women’s opinions, encouraging women to be subservient.

It reminded me of Home and Away 😅

They’re often expected to mix when not out as a couple. Men aren’t. If men are vaguely civil to their GFs friends and their boyfriends, they’re called a nice bloke. Unless women are over friendly with their boyfriends friends and their GFs, they’re often called cold, unfriendly and told they’re not making an effort.

Well, the core beliefs are:

Working to increase equality, expanding human choice, eliminating gender stratification, ending sexual violence, and promoting sexual freedom.

Everything else is individual opinions. And, like in Christianity, people interpret the "core" to fit their own beliefs and agendas.

But none of this has anything to do with femininity, toxic or otherwise.

So if you go out as a couple with all your couple friends

& at some point in the night the guys + girls split off to hang with their respective groups

Wouldn't you be a bit put out if your partner insisted on staying in the garden hanging with the girls rather than being the loungeroom with the blokes?

You wouldn't think "I wish Bruce would just go hang with the other guys so us girls could have a proper chat!"

Yes he’s too busy accusing Elmo of being a member of Hamas on Twitter, a true intellectual 🤭

The first comment really nailed it.

It is impossible to accept the OP's reasoning that "If men & women are equal" then .... because we all know that men and women are not universally equal cf. the gender pay gap.

Black swan, OP. Black swan. #logic101

Can you hear yourself fgs? Believe it or not, we're not all stuck at the teenage disco stage where boys and girls need to be separated. Some of us actually enjoy the company of people of the opposite sex who aren't our partners.

OK so if being female & being a feminist are one in the same & interchangeable

Then if I were to believe that say, the promotion of sexual freedom for women has gone too far or that the gender pay gap is not due to a systemic conspiracy against women, am I no longer feminist then?

Or am I just not the right type of feminist?

Will the other feminists come out in full force to tear me down for my beliefs?

Or are those beliefs allowed to peacefully co-exist?

You're perfectly entitled to your beliefs. I'm just not sure they're feminist per se. Open to correction.

Even the best of us are known to not show our best selves when it comes to social media

& would do well to step away

Twitter/X is known for seducing people into engaging in petty online arguments

I don't think it's necessarily a reflection of our entire body of life's work...

Toxic femininity would definitely be pretending to be Jordan Peterson and going onto Mumsnet to rile the feminists.

You are no JP buddy. Go clean your room and stop wasting time pretending to be something you are not, on the internet.

I'm thinking breastfeeding is another example of toxic femininity

The pressure to breastfeed comes primarily from other women

Breastfeeding a child is arguably seen socially as one of the ultimate displays of the "feminine"

Tell me you don't understand 'toxic masculinity' without telling me

I could explain it to you, but there's a vast wealth of knowledge called the internet. Try using it.

'Then if I were to believe that say, the promotion of sexual freedom for women has gone too far'

Care to elaborate on this?

Think you've jumped the shark there Bud.

Yes women breastfeed to appear feminine to other women. That’s absolutely the only reason.

Those instances you post could be argued that its not the women but men. The patriarchy. Its been instilled into women that men are a rare commodity and deserve respect, to be fought after, competition between women for 1 man, competition between woman to woman.

• As for: 'Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas

Is bull..yet again. Another patriarchal ideal.

OP have you read/heard the bit about where woman are conditioned to hate other woman?

I'm not pretending to be JP, I thought the name was funny & yes I do like watching his content as find a lot of it quite thought provoking

I picked "SouthernCrossConservative" at first but went with this name to be lighthearted

Also my other post was asking for advice about my miscarriage so no, am not pretending to be him

I don't agree with everything he says, but generally who can agree with every single opinion another person has?

Other people here have chosen names of actual people & nobody thinks they are pretending to actually be them

A whole bloody school of them.

Firstly, being female and being a feminist are NOT the same thing and are NOT interchangeable.

But to address the rest of your post, you can hold whatever beliefs you want and call yourself a feminist.

Those beliefs can co-exist with others, but "peacefully" is out of anyone's control.

If you voice your beliefs, no, not every single other feminist will come out and tear you down (because they are not all one hive mind). Some may agree with you. Some may not agree but still accept your right to hold those beliefs. And some may exercise their right to challenge you on them.

Sorry it is hard to comment for every post

If women are conditioned to hate other women, then why do we hear about the "sisterhood" ?

But I do think that women may be conditioned to hate women who are not like themselves

Will have to give that one more thought, as I have not experienced a true sisterhood & been "backstabbed" by those considered my friends in the past, so this is why I don't believe it has existed for me personally

But that doesn't mean I don't believe that there aren't groups of women who are incredibly close

It may be related to cliques though, so if the woman steps out of the clique she will be ostracised & have lost her "sisterhood"

None of the things you have listed are particularly feminine. It is just a list of annoying stuff people do but you have used sexist stereotypes.

A clique is just another name for a gang or a group. Men certainly have those.

Man have affairs. The ‘other man’ just isn’t a term we use (could have an interesting discussion about why not).

I have never known anyone who uses tears as a manipulation tactic. Is that a thing in real life? I thought it was something shown in slightly sexist films. I think men and women can be equally manipulative. Maybe you haven’t realised they are doing it to you!

Men gossip and are certainly judgmental.

Some men are just as anti feminism as some women.

Men are very focused on each others appearance but in different ways. height, size, strength etc. Just look at you tube.

Drinking wine is considered sophisticated by many men (I have seen it on CVs) Drinking beer is also considered a bit of a personality trait by some men.