Toxic femininity?

[JordanPeterson]

If men & women are equal

Then it stands to reason that toxic femininity is a real phenomenon

However it does not seem to be widely acknowledged or permitted to be discussed in society

As a 40 something woman have experienced this phenomenon & read of it here

Examples that spring to mind include:

• Culture of "cliques" which often lead to bullying & ostracising behaviour
• Using tears as a manipulation tactic
• Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman
• Judging others for different life choices (Eg: not having a career, being "broke")
• Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas
• Focus on appearance (Eg: minimising the risk of botox/plastic surgery to others, reluctance to form friendships with those they perceive as "daggy" - see cliques)
• Obsession towards drinking wine as a personality trait

Now many women do not partake in such negative & socially damaging behaviours

& most of these examples are of toxicity towards other women which is interesting

But that doesn't mean that toxic femininity is not real, does it?

Are we just our own worst enemy?

AIBU to find the culture of toxic femininity worthy of discussion?

Well tbh, it's difficult enough when you're tied to the sink 😜

OP prob thinks that women are anti-dishwasher because they oppress men by making them do the dishes

Where have I said we are a homogenous group though?

I already said not all of us women identify with feminism & I pointed out differences in attitudes from women in other cultures, so that means we aren't all homogenous

I can't preface every single comment by considering LGBTQ+ perspective first OK

If you as a gay woman wish to provide your perspective then go for it

Being gay is a minority & I am speaking in terms of society in general, so my comments are based on the majority of society

It may offend you for someone to default to heteronormativity but if being gay is the exception not the rule then can we be blamed?

Of course my comment about an what it means to be a "good" man in society from a dating perspective won't apply to you

I didn't comment on what an ideal lesbian is in the gay dating pool is, did I...

Yup. Bugger off op.

If you must make it into a concept , toxic femininity would be the expectation for women to be everything for everyone and doing it excellently too, not just a half arsed attempt. When women opt out (either through choice or circumstances) then they are seen as lacking and less than.

Shit like "strong women don't complain, don't hold grudges, don't make a fuss, don't talk about it. They just deal with."

The mask has fully slipped now.

18-30 Male, shorter than he’d like to be, American I reckon, thinks he much brighter than he is, having no luck with the ‘ladies’, and instead of reflecting on what could possibly be putting them off, decides to focus on all the ‘terrible behaviour‘ of women.

We’ve seen it before.

Us women 😂😂😂😂

ok OP you’re not even trying to sound like a woman any more

Reported.

Mother of god, 'society in general' includes gay people. I'm struggling not to be properly rude here.

I don't know why you think Aussie women want a man who can drive. I know one Australian woman that doesn't have a licence. She can drive but doesn't have a full licence.

Also not wanting to harp on about what modern feminist have got you but in Australia they got you the legal right to breastfeed in public, maternity leave, super, the right to drink in public bar to name a few.

Goodness you’re not very good at this. You said, and I quote:

’Isn't a man who is financially stable, hardworking, fit, father material, handy, over 6 foot tall & drives nowadays a pretty rare commodity though?

That's the ideal goal for many women & it's hard for many men to tick all those boxes’

So you are suggesting that this is the ‘ideal goal’ for many women. Based on what? What you’ve pulled out of your backside? By lumping women together you are assuming we are a homogenous group who all want the same things. So yes you’ve done exactly that.

You can’t throw together a bunch of lazy stereotypes and expect people to think you’ve formed some sort of intellectual argument.

Oh and the real difference is that toxic masculinity harms women and men , toxic femininity (if we accept it as a concept) harms women and benefits men.

No but I do find it toxic to sneer at those of us who do actually like being in the kitchen, as though enjoying cooking & taking pride in a clean orderly kitchen is somehow regressive

I don't personally like dishwashers as they use a lot of water & it's just me & my partner here, so what's the point?

I personally don't find washing the dishes to be some form of oppression, but that may be because of my OCD controlling tendencies so I prefer the dishes to be washed & stacked a certain way

I don't believe anyone gives a flying fcuk about your kitchen habits. HTH

If you want a discussion, OP, first you must define your terms: what is toxic femininity?

You might find Karen Straughan's work interesting. There's a presentation of hers on YouTube entitled "Toxic Masculinity and Toxic Femininity".

Come on. That not toxic femininity that is someone being mean. Maybe you need nicer friends.

OK so what would you say is an ideal type of man from the average straight woman's perspective then?

If a man looked good on paper for a straight woman to date, how would you describe him?

You wouldn't say he was broke, short, ugly, overweight, bald, irresponsible, absent father & still lived at home with his parents, would you?

Don't we tell women to have more standards than that?

What do you consider to be the "core beliefs and tenants (sic)" of feminism? Or heaven forefend the "practices"? Is drinking wine one of them?

Well Jesus welcome to Mumsnet this lot are obsessed with cooking three course meals for their unfillable teenage sons AND cleaning their toilets 3 times a day. Far cry from sneering

I don't personally like dishwashers as they use a lot of water & it's just me & my partner here, so what's the point?

Not the point of the thread but dishwashers use a lot less water than washing up by hand. https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/which-research-reveals-how-little-water-dishwashers-use-compared-to-hand-washing-aUDng9Y2iK8E

There is no ideal, and there is no average. Because all women want different things from a partner. My ideal is very different from my sister's for example, because we are gasp very different people. If you have gotten this far in life without knowing this, tbh I feel a bit sorry for you

This thread is funny because my female friends and I actually talk about "toxic femininity" and how it's affected us a lot. From overbearing mothers who held us to rigid standards of conventional womanhood to the female bonding expectations around diet culture and weight obsession.

Not going to debate it with someone on the internet calling themselves JordanPeterson though.

😂

Yes I noticed this is, its very convenient.

OP, you began by saying this:

If men & women are equal

Then it stands to reason that toxic femininity is a real phenomenon

Which sounds like a not very well thought out sixth form debating topic.

Your entire argument is based on a false premise.

Men and women are not equal.

The End.

Most of the rest of what you say here can be surmised as "women do it too". Which is also a false premise.

Toxic masculinity is a concept developed by human beings. And it is a controversial concept which means different things to different people. Unless you define here what you mean by it there isn't much point discussing it with you.

Sexism, patriarchy, femininity, masculinity, etc are complex topics. You seem very keen here to reduce them to the level of stereotype and simplistic trope via strawman arguments and overuse of "one could argue that...."

Yeah, one could argue that women and men are equal therefore blah blah blah if one wishes to. It's an argument that is not based in reality and therefore void of substance. I'm puzzled as to why one would bother to do so. It's about as useful (and offensive) as spending time and energy on thought experiments about racism or antisemitism or homophobia not being a thing.

There are basic, useful and commonly agreed upon concepts which are used to explore social systems / class systems etc in order for discussions to be fruitful and interesting. They also help one to avoid falling into the traps of false premise and simplistic straw arguments. I'm not seeing any of them in your rather tit for tat logical fallacy position.