Toxic femininity?

[JordanPeterson]

If men & women are equal

Then it stands to reason that toxic femininity is a real phenomenon

However it does not seem to be widely acknowledged or permitted to be discussed in society

As a 40 something woman have experienced this phenomenon & read of it here

Examples that spring to mind include:

• Culture of "cliques" which often lead to bullying & ostracising behaviour
• Using tears as a manipulation tactic
• Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman
• Judging others for different life choices (Eg: not having a career, being "broke")
• Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas
• Focus on appearance (Eg: minimising the risk of botox/plastic surgery to others, reluctance to form friendships with those they perceive as "daggy" - see cliques)
• Obsession towards drinking wine as a personality trait

Now many women do not partake in such negative & socially damaging behaviours

& most of these examples are of toxicity towards other women which is interesting

But that doesn't mean that toxic femininity is not real, does it?

Are we just our own worst enemy?

AIBU to find the culture of toxic femininity worthy of discussion?

Chess with a pigeon so accurately describes this thread. I’m out.

I was only able to thank you once for your post of 7.03 @herewegoroundthebastardbush but that hardly conveys my appreciation of your post.

@JordanPeterson if you've finally got around to searching the actual definition of toxic femininity you'll have seen it's not about feminism; it actually describes YOU.

@JordanPeterson Why did you choose your user name?

@herewegoroundthebastardbush "And yes many modern women are stressed out and tired. So were many women in the past"

Personally, I'd rather be stressed out and tired and able to vote and have basic human rights than stressed out and tired without.

@Nagado So would "she be overthinking and turning it into something unnecessary"
If she asked "is it OK to provide bacon rolls for breakfast at my multi cultural workplace?" Or "There are several Jehova's Witnesses among my staff-OK to give them Easter eggs?"

Oops, wrong thread.

You’re replying to me on the wrong thread. But if you think those two things are comparable then I can’t be bothered to explain it to you. Have a lovely day.

The most shocking thing to me is that the OP has another thread on here talking about her miscarriage and how she has gone off her partner and is not ready to have sex. Yet she can't even comprehend that in a society before feminism, she would have had no choice about that. Whether she liked her partner or not, or whether she wanted to wait to have sex, she would have had no control over any of it. Because he would have been the one to decide what happened to her.

Though, she said partner, not husband, so in actual fact she would have been worthless back then.

it isn't rare, it's tedious. And it is even more tedious if it really is a woman behind this.

Tedious. Boring. Wrong. So very wrong.

Thanks to all the brave rational people on this thread who have continued to engage in pigeon chess. Sadly we have an OP who doesn't want to learn anything; she just wants to be agreed with.

back in my day you had to have an abortion or leave the military before 12 weeks. So let that sink in. You could have been in the army for 15 years but out before 12 weeks = no SMP etc.

Even women step up they were discriminated against. See also the Women of Steel who stepped into dangerous dirty jobs in the steel industry and were paid less than the men who had done those jobs and had to join the army. Or the miners wives who supported the miners in the 1984 strike - raised money to cover strike pay, set up soup kitchens, etc etc. And were still treated by dog dirt on union leader's shoes in many cases.

Still waiting to see why there isn't a queue of men waiting to do the heavy lifting and dirty but necessary work of adult care. Could it be because it's badly paid?

The OP has a PhD in sea-lioning and this entire thread is a masterclass of it in action.

i have been thinking more on this. And it is just a whole huge misunderstanding in the way that some people hear the words Toxic Masculinity (note the capitals - it is a description of a whole set of a behaviours) and thought "hmm, not fair we ave Toxic Femininity too.

And tbh i do not disagree that Toxic Femininity is a thing. It is, however not feminism. Or even Feminism.

In the way that Toxic Masculinity describes a whole set of things such as "boys don't cry" and "i won't marry someone who isn't a virgin" and "i have to have lots of sex because I'm a man" and "men don't talk about feelings" and "men don't nurture their children" etc etc. Instead of always writing that, Toxic Masculinity is a good shorthand. But it does require people to understand what it stands for (in the same way that Hygge doesn't just mean cozy, and Heimat doesn't just mean where you live)

So what is Toxic Femininity? I would guess it is trying to reinforce unwanted sex stereotypes onto (other) women. Such as "she looks like a hag she should wear make up" or "breast is best" (won't accept any other form of feeding babies) or "older women should have short hair and stay out of the way" or "women should not work outside the home after having children" etc (sorry, brain fog, please add more)

actually it is a good topic for discussion on FWR and i may start one later.
But now, i am also exhausted from playing Pigeon Chess. Thanks to all who have made really good rebuttals. It is all food for thought, and it warms the cockles of my heart to see it, tbh, in these times of "feminism is evil"

“I think women are in great danger of being dominated by women, of being told to liberate themselves by doing what other women want them to do”
-random Aussie lady on the street, 1970s

Possibly. But sadly there actually are women like this. My friend is one (was one?). Married her first boyfriend and stopped working after she had her first child at 24-years-old. Went on to have three more children. Her husband has a very well-paid job in IT so they could afford for her to be a SAHM. She always felt defensive when people made comments about her lifestyle, which is understandable because it really is no one else's business. But she took it to the extreme and would judge others for only have one child, or putting their children in nursery, or having cleaners etc. She very much sounded like the OP. She was so sure that this is the best way to be. Man brings in the money, woman looks after the children and house. The perfect balance.

But now, she's in her 40s, and her husband is on to his 3rd affair. There's not a thing she can do about it. Her biggest worry is that he will leave her for one of these women, not because she loves him, but because she hasn't worked in 20 years, she has no money, she wouldn't be able to take over the mortgage or buy a house of her own because there isn't enough equity in their newest house. On paper, she has a great life, but in reality, she cries all the time and dreads the day the last of the children leave home because she will have nothing.

Why does the opinion of one random Australian lady make any difference?

@HollyKnight and that's the heart of it. We live in an age where all the information you need to back up your choices is available. Women aren't stupid and incapable, they have a responsibility, just as men do, to consider the potential consequences of their choices.

There's also the fact that there isn't one right way to do things. Feminism has given women the ability to choose what's right for them as individuals and follow that through.

Feminism allowed me to return to work after having my children. That enabled me to cope alone after my husband became an abusive alcoholic. I am living my absolute best life thanks to the freedoms feminism has given women.

women gained the right to vote in Australia in late 1800s early 1900s - what is it feminists are fighting for today exactly?

you can’t keep always going back to the same argument of voting, it was 120 years ago people, life was radically different & difficult for everyone then…

suffragettes would not recognise feminism today, do you think they would agree with all of our behaviour today?

were the suffragettes promoting hookup culture & selling naked photos of themselves were they?

working a full time job & going home to manage a household & kids with no partner is a lot of work & extremely tiring

not all women thrive in that situation - many feel burnt out.

many women would prefer to be at home with their kids & not have to work, but don’t have the choice too now, like we were told we would.

If you have that setup now you are considered pretty lucky that your husband supports you

if men today are so bad why aren’t they all telling us to stay home & not work? They don’t because they are taught we are gold diggers if we do that, only traditional religious men tend to like that setup long term.

Most will generally expect her to go back to work when the kids reach school age

feminists pretend that due to sexual liberation & divorce laws that rape is no longer an issue today, but due to hookup culture there is much more chance of date rapes, sti and accidental pregnancy + abandonment

back in the day if a man got you pregnant, he faced intense social pressure to “man up” and stick by you as it was his responsibility to provide

back in the day both men & women left marriages back in the day, affairs were a thing

but you had to leave town with your new lover if you did as the social stigma was so great.

if a man had an affair & left his family he was also ostracised by other men & lost his friends too.

Other men didn’t want a bar of him, so you’d move away with your affair partner to start a new family

anybody who is raped should be supported, man or woman.

men face great social stigma reporting rape, but it’s not widely discussed in the mainstream because feminists are hellbent on shutting down mens rights activists who discuss these issues & claiming all MRA content is “toxic”

hypocritical much!

Did you press play on the video?

they were Vox popping quite a few ladies on the street there

i just quoted one lady as she really nailed it

funny to disregard the opinions of women in the 70s discussing feminism because they disagree with you & challenge the notion all women were miserable / oppressed back then

just because it’s here in Australia doesn’t make their views less relevant just because they are discussing women’s lib from an Aussie perspective

shouldn’t the sisterhood be caring about all women, not just those in the uk?

i take it you don’t care about women in Afghanistan then?

seems xenophobic, but you are free to practice your brand of feminism

it is weird that people are directing me to go read books & do my research

but you wont press play on a video I have taken the time to source for you & it’s quite entertaining to watch

Exactly. It baffles me that some people actually think it is wrong to encourage women to plan their futures and ensure their own financial security. For sure, my life is harder because I worked when my children were young, but it also means that if my DH turns into a bastard at some point, my children and I are not trapped with him. It also means he knows I don't have to tolerate lazy, entitled behaviour from him. Equally, I could have gone down the SAHP route and it all worked out fine and had a more peaceful life. But having that choice is what is important. We all get to weigh up the risks and decide for ourselves which paths to take in life.

And... another load of nonsense and opinion masquerading as fact. Let me pick you up on a few things.

How is being forced into a permanent relationship just because you got pregnant a good thing? These days at least you have a choice to stay with the man, go it alone with him paying maintenance, or termination. Choices, responsibilities.

The stigma of affairs back then was far worse for women than for men. Men didn't get sent to the Magdalene Laundries, women did. Men got to have consequence free sex far more than women.

It is not because of feminism that men feel unable to report rape. That is just bullshit.

No feminist has ever said rape is no longer an issue. Quite the opposite. Let's see your evidence for that statement.

And modern feminism isn't just about voting (though that is still an issue in many countries). It's about bodily autonomy, improving rape convictions, equality at work (where women are still frequently managed out for getting pregnant), fair and equal pay, stalking, support with domestic violence- the list is endless. There is much work still to be done for feminists.

Vox pops from 50 years ago are irrelevant.

Back in the day you met young & built a life together

women today create our own wealth & that has positives, but there are downsides we can’t ignore too

when a woman builds wealth individually we run the risk of someone using us because we own the nice house while they rent

you have to make sure you have a watertight prenup & the man doesn’t add any value to your home or he could make a claim to your asset in divorce

or you don’t get married to avoid a man having a claim at all, so if the relationship falls apart he doesn’t owe you a cent except child support so no pension split between you

money can & does complicate things sometimes

plenty of posts on this forum with women discussing various problems relating to the fact they own property & their partner doesn’t

ah Ok, 50 years ago is in the past, so it’s irrelevant to you now

how many years has it been since women couldn’t vote, get a divorce, report a rape, or any of the other historic injustices women faced again?

seems it’s one rule when you want to defend your argument

& another when your argument is being challenged with actual evidence from everyday women

70s was peak feminist era, but you will disregard a video of women in the 70s discussing women’s lib

make it make sense people

But that's the risk you run when you get married. It used to be men almost exclusively who ran that risk and now it's more balanced. I see that as a positive. Again: choice, responsibility. No doubt on men's forums there will be lots of posts about how their wife is taking them for all they can get - if I were posting there, my answer would be the same as it would be to a woman: that's how it works, you knew this when you got married, deal with it.