Toxic femininity?

[JordanPeterson]

If men & women are equal

Then it stands to reason that toxic femininity is a real phenomenon

However it does not seem to be widely acknowledged or permitted to be discussed in society

As a 40 something woman have experienced this phenomenon & read of it here

Examples that spring to mind include:

• Culture of "cliques" which often lead to bullying & ostracising behaviour
• Using tears as a manipulation tactic
• Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman
• Judging others for different life choices (Eg: not having a career, being "broke")
• Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas
• Focus on appearance (Eg: minimising the risk of botox/plastic surgery to others, reluctance to form friendships with those they perceive as "daggy" - see cliques)
• Obsession towards drinking wine as a personality trait

Now many women do not partake in such negative & socially damaging behaviours

& most of these examples are of toxicity towards other women which is interesting

But that doesn't mean that toxic femininity is not real, does it?

Are we just our own worst enemy?

AIBU to find the culture of toxic femininity worthy of discussion?

I still don’t understand what you want OP?

You want to find a man who will go out to work so you can stay home? Fine do it! It’s your life, nobody else really cares.

I am so happy with my life, my husband and I work, yes we could afford for one of us to give up work, but for various reasons that doesn’t work for us. We work similar hours, earn similar amounts. We split the household tasks according to which ones we prefer doing and are happy with the split. I never feel stressed, we never work or do any housework on weekends. We are completely in love and lust with each other and are just generally really happy.

We can all choose to do what we want, we are all aware of the benefits and risks of our life choices. Why can’t people just choose their own path? I for one am really glad I have the choice.

And what? You think it's better for a woman to have nothing so she doesn't have to protect anything? That's stupid. Having to take time to protect your assets isn't a bad problem to have.

Like I said, my friend went down the "traditional" route of having no income or assets and is now stuck with a cheating husband. Unless he decides to end the marriage.

It isn't just about the things you listed. How about you respond to the points I raised about abortion rights being eroded and women still losing their jobs for getting pregnant? You seem to think women should be content with what they have now and put up with ongoing unfair treatment. That's why I am not interested in stuff from 50 years ago: I live in 2024, so do my kids, and feminism still has work to do. You look to the past if you want to. BTW, toxic nostalgia is also a thing.

Why does he decide but she has no say?

can’t she divorce him if she chooses & get a share of assets / pension?

wouldn’t she potentially get more of a share & perhaps primary custody because she isn’t working & he financially supports her?

i was just pointing out that having your own assets can come with its own set of problems too, there are both positives & negatives

another issue that can potentially be a problem is when you remarry & the issue of wills/inheritance going to step vs bio kids

that can cause lots of dramas, you read that a lot here too

i love my home - dad did pay for half of it to help me get ahead, but it’s in my name. I wouldn’t ever put a future husband on it, but there are considerations & potential complications within a relationship…

If you read Mumsnet diligently, you must know how easy it is for one partner in a marriage to screw the other over financially when there is imbalance. I don't know what the law says in Australia, but in the UK, it's easy to dodge financial responsibilities if you aren't in a salaried job. Quit your job, go self employed, pay peanuts or nothing in maintenance for your own kids. It happens all the time and it's mostly men who do it. Another job for feminism to tackle!

No, she can't divorce him because she wouldn't be able to afford a house of her own, or to buy him out of the house they're in now. She wouldn't be able to pay the bills, or feed and clothe the children, or pay for their schooling. Child maintenance isn't going to cover all that. That is why she has no say over what happens. And if he decides to leave her, she is screwed.

You have your own home but you wouldn't put a future husband on it? Even though the poor sod spends all his days down the mine, you don't think he deserves even part of it. That's not very traditional of you.

Man sticks by pregnant woman: "Forced marriage! Oppression!"

Man abandons pregnant woman: "Bastard! Take responsibility!"

Adoptions were much more common back then, so many women weren't forced to marry, they gave the baby away instead

If you don't work & get knocked up, can you always afford a child on just average maintenance alone?

What if you want to keep the baby but you can't so feel forced to have a termination? That's traumatic

Now it's much harder for infertile people to adopt babies, as majority of women will abort rather than adopt the baby out

Didn't say feminism was responsible for men feeling unable to report rape.

I said feminists expected support from men to report their rapes but dislike the existence of a "Men's Rights activists & they don't offer support to male rape victims, which is hypocritical

Rape is still an issue for women today & due to sexual liberation there is not just marital rape to worry about, but also now date rape now which, if you are sleeping around has an increased chance of occurring

Feminism has actually contributed to rape culture by promoting sleeping around as empowering for women

What work needs to be done for Western women in today's society?

Feminism has actually contributed to rape culture by promoting sleeping around as empowering for women

ah there we have it. Go away and stop plopping your misogynistic bollocks here on a forum for women.

What work needs to be done for Western women in today's society?

also go away with this. I have been spreading the word on the plight of women in Afghanistan since the late 90s. And spreading the word about FGM since i first heard about it when i was at school. We don't only care about "western" women. We care about ALL women. Even you who, with your tradwife views.

If a woman is coerced by people around her to marry when she doesn't want to, that is indeed forced marriage. If a man walks away and refuses to pay his share towards the child he has fathered, that is indeed unacceptable. Why does that bother you?

Women can absolutely choose to have the baby and give it up for adoption if they feel they do nit want an abortion. This is what having a choice means. It is a positive thing.

Your statement on date rape is victim blaming at its finest. Well done.

My last paragraph, which you quoted, lists some of the things feminism globally still needs to achieve. Go back and read it again, it answers your question.

Feminists say women have choices now in her stituation, but here you claim your friend doesn't have a choice

She could get a job, rent & send kids to a state school

She could file for divorce, wait for the settlement split of his pension & marital property, then use the settlement to set up her own new life

It sounds like your friend is choosing to stay in a relationship where she doesn't have to work or support herself because it's is the most comfortable option for her

Hence proving that having a man go out & work while you stay at home has some benefits, or she would leave

As her friend you could surely help her with advice & support for her to leave in some way, right?

Are you saying you haven't brainstormed & come up with not a single option to get her out of this situation?

Yet she hasn't taken you up any offers, she is choosing to stay put for reasons not relating to oppression.

What rights do you feel should feminists be fighting for today that would help your friend?

My question is about Women in the west, not women in Afghanistan though

What is it you are fighting to achieve in the West today?

Why is it Western Feminists always reference the plight of women in Afghanistan?

Yet you never see them all grouping together to bravely fly out to the Middle East & fight oppression there?

Easier to protest & complain about that within the safety of your Western country

Leave the actual fighting in the Middle East to the men hey

yes but you have enough examples on this thread about why western women still need feminists fighting for their rights. FGS read your own posts. Each one of them screams why women need feminism.

Restricting women's rights to what we have is daft.

Feminists say women have choices now in her situation? Nope. "Feminists" made it so she had a choice before getting into her situation. Feminism made it so this wasn't her only choice. Feminism is not responsible for her making this choice.

I don't know in what dream world you live in where you think a woman, who hasn't worked in 20 years, can get a job that not only fits around her four children, but will also pay enough for her to rent a house and provide for herself and her children. Any settlement she would get would not be enough for her to set up a new life.

I have no solutions for her. I can't pluck a time machine out of my back pocket.

What rights do you feel should feminists be fighting for today that would help your friend?

Eh? Nothing. She made her choice freely. She wasn't forced to into it.

I would say that a lot of feminists are fighting for all women (and men, come to that) know how to work out the consequences of their actions, and to constantly revise their living situation.

How is the promotion of breast feeding an example of toxic what not? I really am struggling with your rationale, you are exuding ‘The Waltons’ vibes but are opposed to breast feeding? Eh?

@Goldenbear agreed. I am vehemently opposed to pressurising women to breastfeed, but it is a fact that breast is best. IMO women who want to do it and struggle should get help, and those who do not wish to do it, or wish to stop, should not be judged by anyone.

Yes, absolutely agree!

Tbh, I can’t follow the OP’s logic and it reminds me of some of those women commentators that advocate for men. It is frankly embarrassing.

The reason you can't follow OP's logic is that there isn't any. Her position can be simply summed up as 'I hate my life and it's all feminism's fault'. It's sad but also extremely irritating.

On another thread she's slagging off "snowflakes" and lamenting the loss of traditional values/traditional family unit.

You seem confused about your military history. "Trench warfare" was not a feature of WWII.

i was in the flippin' army, you muppet. WW3 didn't break out when i was on duty. You're welcome.

@JordanPeterson Your post is completely wrong headed and you write as a man.
If you really are interested then let me tell you.
Toxic masculinity is based on trying to live up to a idol of masculinity. That is the hard, tough unemotional hero who can overcome any obstacle. The poisonous attitudes from that are common to many men.

The opposite of that, toxic femininity, is the helpless victim martyr, who is a passive victim with impotent feelings and emotions. The behaviour we would get from that would be failing to take responsibility, a complete victim complex and thinking your own feelings are more important than anything else.

Do you notice anything about the description of toxic femininity? It completely fits with the attitudes from that are common to many men and not women. It is men who walk out on relationships and continually complain and demand emotional support and help, not men.

What men need to address is not their femininity nor their masculinity but their toxicity.