Toxic femininity?

[JordanPeterson]

If men & women are equal

Then it stands to reason that toxic femininity is a real phenomenon

However it does not seem to be widely acknowledged or permitted to be discussed in society

As a 40 something woman have experienced this phenomenon & read of it here

Examples that spring to mind include:

• Culture of "cliques" which often lead to bullying & ostracising behaviour
• Using tears as a manipulation tactic
• Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman
• Judging others for different life choices (Eg: not having a career, being "broke")
• Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas
• Focus on appearance (Eg: minimising the risk of botox/plastic surgery to others, reluctance to form friendships with those they perceive as "daggy" - see cliques)
• Obsession towards drinking wine as a personality trait

Now many women do not partake in such negative & socially damaging behaviours

& most of these examples are of toxicity towards other women which is interesting

But that doesn't mean that toxic femininity is not real, does it?

Are we just our own worst enemy?

AIBU to find the culture of toxic femininity worthy of discussion?

As far as I can tell you think toxic femininity and feminism are the same thing. You don’t have a working under of either of them. You are unhappy with your life and want to blame something. So you blame toxic femininity and feminism rather than your own choices and situation.

Nicely put!

This is just another example of Feminists & Trans activists using the same playbook to defend their delusions & avoid accountability though

EG:

If I'm a teenager & take puberty blockers / cut my breasts off & later in life regret having made that decision

Then I must take responsibility for my personal choices right?

I should blame myself as an individual as I had free choice

The information on risks was out there & it is 100% my fault that I didn't do all my research first

It would be wrong for me to start questioning the influence of Trans ideology in society

When I speak about my regret it is only related to my lived experience & my situation

If I regret my choice, I am just a tiny minority anyway

Other people who've transitioned tell me they're all happy with their choices, so what would I know?

They say I can't be a real Trans person & so I mustn't speak for them

Other people's private lives are not my business

I should stop obsessing about what others choose to do with their private parts

I am harming all Trans folk by talking about my experiences now

It must just be my internalised Transphobia talking

Got it Dr Jump !

What accountability do you think I am hiding from?

If you're anti trans, just come out and say it. You'll have plenty of people who agree with you. Why bother with the toxic femininity shit?

If such a thing exists as toxic masculinity, I don't think you can conclude that therefore there must also be toxic femininity.

I don't really like either term.

I do think though that most qualities, and even virtues, have a kind of negative version, where they become out of proportion or improperly directed, or twisted to wrong ends. Being generous can turn into being a spendthrift and not looking out for tomorrow, just as a simple example.

In some cases this can happen with qualities we think of as particularly masculine or feminine. That's always a generalization, but in some cases the pattern is strong enough to be a recognizable thing. For example, the masculine role of protector or provider can become over-bearing, aggressive, treated like it gives a kind of ownership, can see the wife or children as owing obedience, enjoying the dependance of others. A power trip.

For women, you can get the kind of mother who will go to any end to promote her kids, even at the expense of fairness to others, or who lives so vicariously through her kids she doesn't really see their own interests and needs.

The other typical example of this might be the kinds of strong social networks women can have that hold communities and families together, or the way they keep an eye out to protect their kids and community from negative forces. This can become a very unpleasant kind of hierarchical power structure, very judgemental, inclined to gossip. In younger women, a Mean Girls sort of scenario.

Feminists don't want to be held accountable

For Feminism promoting a culture of sleeping around as being only positive & liberating for women

Feminists become upset & hostile when anyone points out potential immediate or long term risks of having a "high body count"

Just like a Trans activist desperately trying to shut down discussion about any potential immediate or long term risks of transitioning

This isn't a feminism I recognise.

Sex positivity and feminism aren't the same thing.

Maybe you could spend some time reading differing branches of feminism. Radical feminism is very different to liberal feminism for example.

So you don’t recognise that modern feminism celebrates promiscuity

under the guise of being “sex positive” ?

have you not been reading this thread or are you being deliberately obtuse ?

yet another example of the language tricks Trans activists & feminists like to use

just call it a pleasant sounding term that sounds catchy to a wide audience so they won’t think too deeply about it

”sex positive” suggests anybody who says promiscuity isn’t great for people is just a negative prude

kind of like how Trans activists insist we call it “gender affirming care” and that anybody who questions the impact of medical transitions is uncaring

so someone who says promiscuity isn’t good for people cannot be having wild sex with one person

they must really suck in the sack, right…

rad female & lib fems are completely different you see

just like being non binary & trans is completely different even though they fall under the same LGBTQ+ rainbow flag & share common core principles, right?

No I don't I think much of what you keep claiming is feminism is either capitalism or a male push for their needs to be met. To take a step back there was several years ago and add for baby formula called the sisterhood of motherhood but really it was anything but. It was reductive stereotypes of mothers fighting it out only for the dads to save the day. At quick glance it might seam like feminism but just peel back of the layers you find capitalism and corporate marketing there.

Ahh of course, evil capitalism is responsible for the promotion "sexual liberation"

It's must be some a sinister plot to sell Only Fans subscriptions & exploit women

Once Communism kicks in we'll all be too dog tired from backbreaking labor, starving & stressed out to even think about sex

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts

Interesting to hear your perspective on virtues associated with males & females can have a negative flip side

Men:
Being brave VS being reckless
Hardworking VS being workaholic
Tough VS lacking range of emotion or aggressiveness
Being a leader VS being domineering

Women:
Kind VS doormat
Charm VS manipulation
Empathy VS boundary issues
Nurturing VS smothering
Good communication skills VS gossiping

Like you say these are just generalisations...

But in general both sexes tend to have patterns of behaviour & virtues associated with us that are cross cultural

Appreciate your insight TempestTost

You're still promoting the stereotypes though. If it is a virtue for a man to be hardworking, brave, a leader etc., are these things not also virtues in a woman? And the same flipping female virtues for men?

Note that @TempestTost 's post describes toxic femininity in exactly the way the article linked in this thread does. Have you read it yet?

On promiscuity/sex positivity, again: you cannot extrapolate from your personal experience and regrets to stating all women will feel like you if they have many sex partners. Not without providing some research to back that up.

The OP had been asked if they have read the link so many times but don’t think they are interested in being educated, just plying on with their own odd narrative.

I love how OP is desperately trying to draw people into a trans debate...but no one cares.

I will read the link & respond, which one was it

not trying to debate trans ideology that’s not what the topic was about

just using it to point out that two ideologies which are known to clash today are actually based on the same mindset

& using it to expose the flaw of the feminist argument / mindset

trans activists & terfs wouldn’t usually consider themselves to be so similar, would they?

How is my thinking odd

when a large proportion of the world doesn’t identify as being a modern western woman?

is every woman not from the west oppressed & unenlightened?

guess when a woman presents a point of view that conflicts with feminism it must seem odd to you due to indoctrination

maybe am just deprogrammed & we are both educated, I just formed a different conclusion based on evidence ?

No there are different virtues that are associated with both sexes

i was listing virtues & said they were generalisations, did you not read that big?

i have spoken of risks & said they are not guaranteed outcomes

a simple Wikipedia search indicates promiscuity is associated with increased risk of

• mood disorders
• substance abuse
• sexually transmitted diseases
• family dysfunction
• stress
• teenage pregnancy
• loss of educational opportunities
• domestic violence

it says these risks can develop over time

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_human_sexual_promiscuity

wiki will site the source of these claims, it looks like research has been done on it before

what scientific research has been done to show that promiscuity has long term positive outcomes?

I found one article that says a positive outcome is if women have children with multiple different partners it helps prevent inbreeding, but does that really help women or just the future gene pool?

what percentage of western women today are on antidepressants, I wonder…

(used to be on them so it’s a question not a criticism of medication taken when necessary )

Being associated with does not equate to 'will definitely happen to everyone '. Again, choice and responsibility.

How many women in the good old traditional 1950s were reliant on Valium, aka 'mother's little helpers'? It's swings and roundabouts.

Feminism is on the rise in non Western countries. For very good reasons.

Your Wikipedia article is noted as being disputed, BTW. Not a good look.

Wikipedia being the font of all reliable information eh?

Its fairly obvious that while sex is weaponised against women and attitudes to their sexuality used as a means of social control, there will be a link between a lot of sex and an increase in the likelihood of undesirable outcomes for some women. However, why do you see the solution to that being for women to restrict themselves sexually, rather than addressing the male attitudes and behaviour that use women's sexuality to shame and harm them?

Although wiki should have told you it's 'cite' and not 'site'.

Not at all surprised the feminists have disputed a wiki page about “promiscuity” seeing as people here have claimed the dictionary definition is offensive

as far as I can see the research results aren’t disputed, just a criticism that it is not a neutral source

haven’t I been directed to various books by feminists to read? Those are to biased sources are they not?

Scientific research is known to be dissected & disputed isn’t it?

don’t academics often debate scientific research results ?

what points in the wiki post do you take exception to?

correcting someone’s spelling mistake isn’t a great look & isn’t the “gotcha” moment it may seem

makes a person look petty, my spelling is generally good

not that it would make my points any less valid if I couldn’t spell though, would it?

I await links to research showing long term positive outcomes of promiscuity

You have an unhealthy obsession with other people's sex lives. Maybe read a good book or something?