Toxic femininity?

[JordanPeterson]

If men & women are equal

Then it stands to reason that toxic femininity is a real phenomenon

However it does not seem to be widely acknowledged or permitted to be discussed in society

As a 40 something woman have experienced this phenomenon & read of it here

Examples that spring to mind include:

• Culture of "cliques" which often lead to bullying & ostracising behaviour
• Using tears as a manipulation tactic
• Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman
• Judging others for different life choices (Eg: not having a career, being "broke")
• Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas
• Focus on appearance (Eg: minimising the risk of botox/plastic surgery to others, reluctance to form friendships with those they perceive as "daggy" - see cliques)
• Obsession towards drinking wine as a personality trait

Now many women do not partake in such negative & socially damaging behaviours

& most of these examples are of toxicity towards other women which is interesting

But that doesn't mean that toxic femininity is not real, does it?

Are we just our own worst enemy?

AIBU to find the culture of toxic femininity worthy of discussion?

Clicked on this to see if maybe I'd missed something and "toxic femininity" was, in fact, a real thing.

Nope.

women don’t have free choice to be a SAHM as feminist promised - now we are expected socially/financially to work & be independent

If your teen daughter said her life dream was to be a SAHM & raise her family you would be disappointed & warn against her doing so without a career in place

feminists shut down any criticism of sleeping around as “slut shaming” and celebrate sleeping around as being “liberated”

Women in the past tended to do further education past school at home or self educated. Men went onto further education as they were expected to provide their families by becoming qualified so as to earn a good wage.

i take if you haven’t been to Australia where we have many men who work in the mines, one died just the other week at work. An apprentice in my town died on a building site recently too

you think working in aged care is more back breaking than a building site? Working in the searing heat & freezing cold doing dangerous tasks, using tools that can cut your hand off, lifting things heavier than humans?

you know countless older women take care of their geriatric parents, right? Women in their 50s + who are not fit to work on a building site who can somehow manage looking after their ageing parents

the delusion runs deep

men were also once subservient to women as they were solely responsible for providing for their wife & family.

We served & complemented each other

choosing to change the structure of society has long term impacts & does not necessarily always lead to positive outcomes

women expect men to adhere to gender stereotypes, because when we are in danger we expect men to stand up for us, be brave & step into help - even if that woman is a complete stranger to him

Are there 0 women working in mines or on building sites in Australia?

The definition of feminism & what they are fighting for has evolved, changing dramatically from what it originally stood for

what is it exactly that western women are fighting for in the west today?

if it’s the gender wage gap or equity in employment, then by all means we are free to go work in the mines & make the big bucks, be on building sites & drives garbage trucks

the gender wage gap isn’t a patriarchal conspiracy, as the majority of HR departments are run by women

so if there is some conspiracy to pay women less than men across industries , it’s women who are responsible for that

if companies are conspiring to pay women less then why not just hire all women & increase their capitalist profits?

in regards to free choice, historically women weren’t seen as just sexual beings the way we are today

the free choice & sex liberation movement is what has resulted in the us being reduced to the sexual objects we are today

just some holes, bum & boobs, so dehumanising isn’t it?

it is women who choose to be pornstars & sexualise ourselves online & be remunerated for it

being a porn star used to be a scandal & a shame to your family - but now that “sex positivity” is completely out of control, we celebrate women who do only fans as empowered business women

We demonise men who consume the porn we create for profit & accuse them of seeing us as the sex objects we chose to become

& while we dehumanise ourselves we still expect men to treat us like a lady

women who don’t partake in “hookup culture” are still impacted & feel the effects of being seen as a sexual object in today’s society

why should our voice be ignored & shut down by the same feminists who promote sexual liberation in the first place

feminists expect men to keep other men who behave badly in line & say it is their duty

yet they don’t like it when their behaviour is criticised by other women & we point out bad behaviour amongst our own kind

OK so accepting your premise that feminism is a system of belief; and accepting that it is a dominant one in Western society (my GOODNESS how I would like to dispute that with statistics but I fear youare not the audience for that); who is meant to be promoting the alternative view? Surely not feminists themselves - I would not expect fundamentalist muslims/christians/jews etc to promote atheism and female emancipation and gay liberation, however much I might think those things are valuable.

There is nothing stopping individuals, groups and even governments espousing and promoting the views and actions you desire. I refer you to the manosphere, the threads of a million 'tradwives' currently doing the rounds on TikTok and Insta, Tory tax cuts for married couples, the vaunted fertility expert Robert Winston cautioning women that IVF live births occurred in only 1% of cases via the BBC, your noted namesake Professor Peterson, etc etc. Just because few people agree with them, that doesn't mean the opportunity to put these views out there is inhibited. I mean look at your good self right now, putting them out there on Mumsnet, bastion of the wine-drinking man-hating feminist masses, and somehow living to tell the tale.

As for gender studies majors studying the downsides of feminism, nothing whatsoever is stopping you or someone with your perspective enrolling in a Gender Studies MA/PhD and applying yourself to just such a research project. Although you do seem unfortunately resistant to the scientific method of subjecting your hypotheses to systematic scrutiny so you may find it rather hard going. But still, fill your boots! With the rise of the antifeminist backlash currently in effect, if you produce a half-decent monongraph I'm sure you'll find a publisher. And i for one would read it with interest, as I have your posts on this thread, as I remain utterly bewildered by the people who seem to think women having choices is such a bad thing for society at large and would love a clear illustration of how their minds work. Alas o this thread your posts have illuminated very little. I daresay an experienced academic supervisor could help you tease out the main points of your thesis and articulate them properly.

As for men organising on behalf of their own sex and discussing their problems and proposing solutions to them, I would LOVE to see it. Unfortunately, due to toxic masculinity, men tend not to support each other with their common problems, and the issues men face as a sex only ever seem to be raised in relation to actions by women on behalf of theirs, in a "you think YOU have it tough, we work down the mines!" kind of way that doesn't seem conducive to changes in their conditions.

If you're actually a woman, you have some serious issues to unpack.

women don’t have free choice to be a SAHM as feminist promised - now we are expected socially/financially to work & be independent

seriously? there is a WHOLE SAHM board here. have a look. Most of them are very happy with that arrangement. Women who want to be SAHM and can't because of family income? blame capitalism for that. (the world is not run by women)
I do expect women to be able to be independent though. That is only sensible.

If your teen daughter said her life dream was to be a SAHM & raise her family you would be disappointed & warn against her doing so without a career in place

nope. I would inform her of potential possible issues that may come up, ensure she had all the relevant info at hand, and encourage her to have at least some hobbies. But always have an exit or safety strategy.

feminists shut down any criticism of sleeping around as “slut shaming” and celebrate sleeping around as being “liberated”

#NotAllFeminists. Most feminists i know are appalled by the recent discussions of "bodycounts" and men declining girlfriends with a "too high" (but never defined) bodycount. Feminism wants women to have self-determination over their lives. Sex is GREAT FUN. I will have as much of it as i want, thanks.

Women in the past tended to do further education past school at home or self educated. Men went onto further education as they were expected to provide their families by becoming qualified so as to earn a good wage.

Please explain. This makes zero sense. Women in the last century were finally admitted to some universities, attend lectures but not graduate with a degree. What is your point?

i take if you haven’t been to Australia where we have many men who work in the mines, one died just the other week at work. An apprentice in my town died on a building site recently too

As it happens I'm reading about the miners strike of 1984. Women were banned from going down the pits in 1860 something IIRC. THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED. Mining is a backbreaking dirty dangerous job. It is generally paid well (and if not it should be) and there should be more emphasis on safety. Do you think women are celebrating that?

you think working in aged care is more back breaking than a building site? Working in the searing heat & freezing cold doing dangerous tasks, using tools that can cut your hand off, lifting things heavier than humans?

Working in aged care means changing shit filled adult daipers. Undoubtedly it is probably easier than mining (men aren't forced into minds for the most part these days). I don't notice a whole bunch of men trying to avoid heavy work lining up to do that. It is badly paid and badly regarded - that puts them off. And yet women step up. I haven't seen anyone claiming that working in a mine is safer than adult care. But it can be backbreaking. Try it.

you know countless older women take care of their geriatric parents, right? Women in their 50s + who are not fit to work on a building site who can somehow manage looking after their ageing parents

They are often looking after their in-laws too. You are welcome. they get no pay for that, no credit and no pension. But going on what you wrote there, men who work on building sites should be well able to care for their aging parents. do they? DO THEY? (yes, probably one or two do)

the delusion runs deep

It does. But it's not the delusion you think it is, mate.

men were also once subservient to women as they were solely responsible for providing for their wife & family.

I can'T even. But I'll give it a go. They were allowed to rape their wives. Often they drank away their weekly wage. They came home and got dinner on the table, all their washing and cleaning was done for them. Such a hard life. My heart bleeds for all the men who can't have that now because women got the right not to be raped in marriage and sign for their own mortgages. Women have always worked. They didn't always get paid for it tho. and no pension.

We served & complemented each other

If you say so. I know my parents worked well as a family unit. But they both went out to work and earned money.

choosing to change the structure of society has long term impacts & does not necessarily always lead to positive outcomes

It has had a positive outcome for many millions of women who work outside the home if they want, own property and income/bank accounts if they want and are not allowed to be raped by their husbands.

women expect men to adhere to gender stereotypes, because when we are in danger we expect men to stand up for us, be brave & step into help - even if that woman is a complete stranger to him

Is this your first day on MN? There are thousands upon thousands of posts from women wishing the father of their children would step up, change nappies, play with them, cook for them, take them to the park, have them more if they are separated. Literally THOUSANDS.

There are none so blind as those who won't see.

As a woman in the UK, I'd say things peaked in the 90s. As a female child in that era I had every expectation of a good education equal to a boy, of employment, and of control over my body and my fertility (barring rape). Women's rights and freedoms were in the ascendant, as was tolerance in general, and because the internet was still in its infancy the horrendous anti-woman backlash we are currently experiencing, fuelled by pornography and online echo chambers where those with the nichest of hateful fringe views could gather, reinforce and recruit, had not yet gathered steam. Economically things were good which I think helped - there was a general feeling the pie was big enough for everyone to get a slice.

Now the economy is fucked and men are feeling insecure and angry so women are getting a kicking for 'taking our jobs' and raising the COL by doing so (scapegoats just like immigrants). Readily available and increasingly violent and degrading porn distornts boys' emerging sex drives, and gives men expectations of sexual abundance that fails to be replicated in reality, leading to resentment and frustration and ultimately hatred and rage against women. It's a dangerous time for women's right and for women's physical safety. For all you see it as an all-powerful monolith, feminism has only really been effecting incremental changes in women's lived experience for about 100 years after millennia of male dominance. Already the wheel is turning and it wouldn't surprise me if the decade or two between 1990-2008 when the markets crashed isn't seen in the future as the golden age of western women's rights, and that things will get a lot 'worse' (from my perspective rather than yours I think) before they get better.

Oh come on surely NO-ONE still believe OP is a woman.

@herewegoroundthebastardbush you're so right. The pornification of sex is a huge threat to women. And who is making the big money from it all, who controls it? Not feminists. The damage to both men and women is immense.

And then there's the chipping away at abortion rights, even here in the UK - women play their part there too, but not feminist ones.

I'm being charitable.

men were also once subservient to women as they were solely responsible for providing for their wife & family.

And if they CHOSE not to, as many men did not (the stereotype of the husband 'drinking his wages' or running off abandoning his wife and kids) they were FUCKED. No welfare state, no jobs for women that paid more than a pittance, even if she could somehow earn enough for a deposit she couldn't get a mortgage to securely house herself and her kids without a male guarantor. So hardly a case of equal service - a woman had to 'serve' a man for basic survival, whereas a man could choose to 'serve' a woman if he wanted the niceties her presence in his life could provide - sex on tap, children and a family life, and the prestige those things afforded him in the public world of men. And he could decide exactly how much support she 'needed' - how much of HIS salary to provide for the household vs his own personal spending. Whereas she had to provide exactly as much 'service' as he required, if she wanted to continue being 'served' in any way whatsoever.

women expect men to adhere to gender stereotypes, because when we are in danger we expect men to stand up for us, be brave & step into help - even if that woman is a complete stranger to him

And how many times, pray tell, have you or any woman you know required a man's assistance to protect you/them from a dangerous attack by another woman? Saying we need big strong men to protect us from other big strong men really isn't the gotcha you think it is.

I wouldn’t expect a male stranger to step in and help me, I would go far as to say this is a very, very unlikely any man, outside of fictional films and TV would take. Besides, the trouble I’ve had had always been from men. I think for myself and protect myself. My DH is protective but he is one of two brothers whose Dad was from a steel mining family and in all honesty, it is probably the shackles of cultural expectations, he knows It’s trad BS and it limits societies progression. His Mum is a bohemian feminist though so wasn’t up for these labels either.

thank you for disagreeing in a respectful way & your questions

feminists should allow space for other viewpoints & not demonise the concept of traditional relationships & families… whether that be from a religious based standpoint or other cultures

people who are interested in content that promotes traditional / conservative viewpoints are hounded down as mysogynistic or right wing nut jobs.

Many people have heard say, Jordan Peterson is a dangerous man with wild ideas but haven’t even watched or listened to him.

They have formed an opinion because they have been told he is “bad” and will parrot that without taking the time to watch his content to make up their own minds

& if they disagree there should still be space for content to be consumed that they personally don’t like

both feminists & trans activists talk about “harm” being caused to them by content that challenges them but in reality it is not harm, just feeling offended & disagreeing

yes I can tell you’re a gender studies major, you always can due to the way they all write. If I go back to uni it won’t be to further my useless arts degree - though it would be fun to go head to head with the feminist professors & further develop my viewpoints

from what I can see of my generation men tend to treasure mateship & camaraderie, so they find support in their social groups & talk amongst themselves about this kind of thing - they are free to complain about women’s behaviour in private, but in public are destroyed for it so may avoid it

in my experience if you pick the brain of most men they will tell you their complaints about women’s behaviour in society, they just avoid the topic as in their experience women shut them down, rant about the patriarchy & won’t listen to their point of view

anytime you try to discuss men having it tough, feminists will always complain that women have it worse

so when women complain how we have it the tough & how toxic men are, is it so unreasonable to point out basic uncomfortable facts, like how it’s men work in the dangerous mines & we wouldn’t have coal powered electricity without them, freezing to death in winter

if all men went on a world wide western strike tomorrow & stopped working their dangerous jobs that keep society ticking along, we would all be screwed quickly, society could simply not function

if women all striked tomorrow & refused to work in protest, yes we still would be greatly impacted but not to the same extent & in different ways

if women stopped working, say schools would close down & more people would die in hospitals

but we’d all still be able to eat, drink clean water & put fuel in our cars at least

May I just point out that @herewegoroundthebastardbush hasn't said she's a gender studies major, just that she is familiar with research and academia...

Thank you @pointythings for being able to read properly :)

As it so happens I do have an MA in Women's Studies from Oxford, so guilty as charged :P

However I also have an MA in Information Studies and Librarianship which is how I earn my bread and butter (no doubt taking a job away from a worthier man!); and therefore have a very good grasp of the importance of evidence, clearly identified sources and well-articulated and interrogated hypotheses, to ensure (a) you know what question you're trying to answer (b) you know how you're going to go about answering it and (c) you can answer it in such a way that others can understand your answer and replicate the process by which you came to it. I think OP may struggle hard with all of the above based on current progress.

OP isn't into evidence, only opinion. Such as the idea that there are 0 female miners and builders in Australia.

You don't think that maybe, if it was a case of sit down and starve or just get on with it, women might just about be able to pick up the slack of all these striking men? I mean in WW1 and WW2 the UK didn't grind to a total halt just because all the men were off getting shot in France, did it?

There is very little only a man can do simply because he is a man (especially nowadays with modern technology being what it is). Whereas there are still quite a few things only a woman can do, by virtue of her female biology (notably making life and making food out of their bodies). I think this is what really vexes and frightens men so much - a female only society is a very real possibility, but a male only one would last precisely one generation at best. They need us; increasingly, we do not need them.

Meanwhile there is an ongoing thread by a woman who is being repeatedly raped by her husband because he's not getting enough voluntary sex from her due to her being in extreme pain from gynae issues. But she can't leave because she has 4 children, no support, no job, no money. And this is in 2024. Yet you think society would be better if no women had another option either.

No thanks.

I am so enjoying the Wall Of Text posts that tell us just how great we have it compared to all those poor downtrodden disadvantaged men in mines in Australia.
Thank you so much, OP.

Indeed. All that male suffering for ungrateful women. I genuinely didn't realise that the creators of the capitalist society that exploits the labouring classes in unsafe and dangerous conditions were actually women all along! The mine owners, factory and mill owners, not to mention the politicians and generals who send men to their deaths... just like the OP, they're all women to a man!

And we women should be grateful for Our Men Who Bring Home The Wages, but the men don't need to be grateful to us for Bringing Home The Wages And Doing All The Bloody Housework And Parenting As Well!

I would class myself as a feminist, but I don’t agree with the points you are making @JordanPeterson.

Your quote, “if it’s the gender wage gap or equity in employment, then by all means we are free to go work in the mines & make the big bucks, be on building sites & drives garbage trucks” tells me you you don’t understand the gender pay gap. The gender pay gap is where there is a greater number of men working in jobs in the top 25th percentile financially. For example, in my company the majority of women hold roles in the lowest quartile, it then goes up like a pyramid to the top quartile (there are few women with highly paid roles, but lots with lowest paid roles). This is the inverse for men.

It doesn’t mean we need more women working in mines as you say. I’m sorry that your government are not enforcing health and safety in the workplace. I have worked on construction jobs in Australia and I found the H&S to be very good with minimal manual handling. Much less manual handling than lifting a 100kg person in and out of bed on a ward.

I disagree with you about not wanting my children to be stay at home parents. I would be happy for either sex to be a SAHP. I would only advise caution that they ensure they have enough joint funds that they pay into a pension for themselves. You only have to look on here to see how some women get left behind when marriages break up and they have no funds. As long as my children are aware of this, then I would be happy. It’s the same if they wanted a more precarious career as say an artist, I would want them to follow their dream, but know financially it could be difficult. I guess that doesn’t fit with your narrative?

You still have answered any of us asking why you don’t want people to have choice?

I am sorry (I do feel for you) that life isn’t what you thought it would be, that must be devastating, but we have so much access now to information and good information if we choose to look for it, that everyone can make an informed decision. I’m sorry that wasn’t the case for you.

”if women stopped working, say schools would close down & more people would die in hospitals

but we’d all still be able to eat, drink clean water & put fuel in our cars at least”

I don’t even know where to start with this as it pure ridiculousness!!! Hospitals are possibly more female heavy, schools yes I would probably agree but my knowledge is limited. Water would be the nearly the same as hospitals (it’s about 50/50 on all our water treatment works projects). Fuel depends on where it is coming from, which energy vector, anyway, I could go on, but most importantly…

Have you never worked in a company?!! Even small companies have resource planning!! I have worked across many of the industries you mention and they are all planned to the nth degree, especially water and power. Nobody is going to be without power if all the men go on strike, or die. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt before, thinking you may not be comfortable researching things and generally bitter about your life, but now I think you are just trying to wind people up. I struggle to believe anyone could be this naive.

Agree with you Op! Also would add women by default being a victim no matter what they say / do to another in a relationship and usually having the upper hand in Court and Family Court processes...the man has pushed her to it, she's just reacting etc if violent. Women sexualising men, i.e strippers, butlers in the buff etc for fun but would leave their husband for watching pornography. Olivia Attwood had a programme on ITVBe where she reviews a lot of plastic surgery trends and one episode is on penises. It's really sad how jokes about being small in that department has affected some of these men and she made a really good point- if a man said a woman was 'loose' down there everyone would go mad, but there's not the same energy for men. Not to mention women who are downright horrible to men if they finish seeing them or end a relationship because they have a blanket view that men don't deserve empathy etc. Very toxic. Only bit of what you said that I'm not sure of is the botox minimisation etc as a toxic trait, I have had plastic surgery etc but wouldn't play down the risks. Sadly I got it ( although I am pleased I did as the results were great ) after being cheated on and yes I very much experienced then just how horrendous the other woman can be!