Toxic femininity?

[JordanPeterson]

If men & women are equal

Then it stands to reason that toxic femininity is a real phenomenon

However it does not seem to be widely acknowledged or permitted to be discussed in society

As a 40 something woman have experienced this phenomenon & read of it here

Examples that spring to mind include:

• Culture of "cliques" which often lead to bullying & ostracising behaviour
• Using tears as a manipulation tactic
• Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman
• Judging others for different life choices (Eg: not having a career, being "broke")
• Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas
• Focus on appearance (Eg: minimising the risk of botox/plastic surgery to others, reluctance to form friendships with those they perceive as "daggy" - see cliques)
• Obsession towards drinking wine as a personality trait

Now many women do not partake in such negative & socially damaging behaviours

& most of these examples are of toxicity towards other women which is interesting

But that doesn't mean that toxic femininity is not real, does it?

Are we just our own worst enemy?

AIBU to find the culture of toxic femininity worthy of discussion?

just like when trans activists claim that caring about the risks of celebrating medical transitions

is just an unhealthy obsession with people’s private parts, right?

the similarities of the feminist & trans activist argument strikes again

Whatever you think yourself.

When a wiki page is disputed, that tends to mean it has been checked out, sources followed up and found to be biased/unreliable. The thing with wiki is that anyone can create and edit a page. It's far better to post the source material directly, which you could have done.

Academic journals and articles are generally checked more rigorously through peer review, and there is often (though not always) a consensus. The two things are not comparable.

OK OP, let us, for a moment, accept your batshit premise.

We'l leave the toxic femininity out because you don't actually understand what that is. So instead we'll focus on your anti-feminism, and your contention that feminism (all of it) is indoctrinating women to live unhappier, riskier lives.

What is your proposed solution?

A time machine, methinks.

ideally teaching about feminism as a theory of belief rather than fact, the way we would with religion or trans ideology

gender studies majors analysing both the positive & negative outcomes of the impact feminism has had on society

Promoting fair, balanced discussion of the potential risks of sleeping around

acknowledging the positive impact men bring to society & to stop demonising men

encouraging young women that being a SAHM can be a positive thing, dropping the notion that being a boss babe career woman is the ideal goal

seeing young people in their 20s settling down to marry as a good thing & becoming more the norm again

stop suggesting young women in their 20s to delay motherhood

understanding that both sexes have responsibilities in society & should be held accountable for poor behaviour, rather than perpetuate the idea that women are “victims”

gratitude that it is good men who keep us safe, do the back breaking labour involved in society & protect us when required

supporting efforts to bring peace & harmony between the sexes again

admitting that the patriarchy is a flawed concept & that both men / women suffered terribly in the past in different ways

respecting that both men / women should be free to discuss the rights of their respective sex & issues that affect them

stop blaming all men for today’s problems & start listening to them too, as we expect from them

that’s just off the top of my head

The sources of this particular wiki page have not been disputed in this case though, have they?

Anybody can dispute a wiki page if they don’t like the content even if it’s factual, can’t they?

posting a wiki a link that clearly references various academic sources allows you to click on them all & check them out for yourself, doesn’t it?

providing proof of research that supports my argument makes it a bit more difficult for you to disregard everything I’m saying here, doesn’t it?

conceding that I may possibly have a point on some things might be a more balanced way of thinking, isn’t it?

Not all progression in society is automatically positive long term though

there can be negative outcomes when radically changing society to suit the ideological beliefs of fringe groups

don’t feminists like to argue that trans ideology is going too far & starting to cause harm in society?

is there any other decade past that you think was a better time in society, or would you say present day life is better for us than all decades past?

But feminism isn't a belief system. It's a political movement. And the fact is that it has given women great things. You may not like it, but equating it to religion is ridiculous. It's also very much not a fringe movement.

Who says gender research doesn't look at the downsides?

Nobody is demonising men. We are just asking them to adapt to the world they live in. That means stepping up where both parents work - equal leisure time for both and no excuses.

While the % of violent crime against women is predominantly perpetrated by men, it is accurate to describe women as the victim. If men want to change that narrative, they need to change their behaviour. The % of violent crime against men is also predominantly perpetrated by men, so clearly they need to be better. No excuses.

Aside from the fact that women also do back breaking labour and protective work, men can have gratitude if and when they start being grateful for the work women do. It has to cut both ways.

And you'll get peace and harmony between the sexes when men stop being the predominant perpetrators of violence and misogyny. Women are by no means perfect, but we have changed. Too many men have not. My MIL had three sons and raised them well; my late husband was good in terms of doing his share at home. Until we had children, then he gradually stopped. Even though we worked the same hours,for the same pay. MIL and FIL came over to visit, and my husband left it all to me. MIL was not impressed and told her son she had raised him better than that, but nothing changed. Only her oldest truly treated his wife like an equal - the rot sits deep.

Isn't it truly depressing that you have to take time out of your life to explain this to someone. Honestly.

Your choice of username explains enough for me .

@DanielGault it really is depressing. Internalised misogyny is a powerful force.

So it seems. Even worse is when people won't sit with it for a while, and consider a different viewpoint. I find that quite sad.

It's the zero sum black and white (lack of) thinking I have problems with. As if there aren't many strands of feminism, and as if feminism only exists in Western culture. I mean, you have but to look at what women are doing in India to change rape culture to see that for the nonsense it is.

Nobody is saying not to be a SAHP. People are saying you have a choice. At one point women weren’t even allowed to have a mortgage without a man!! There are positives and negatives of either sex working/staying home/mixture of both. People should be aware of these positives and negatives and choose accordingly.

Education for women was once discouraged, women had no choice but to be dependant on a man. Now we have a choice.

I don’t know anyone who promotes having sex with as many people as possible being a good thing for either sex. Once women were vilified for not being a virgin before marriage. Now we have a choice.

There are very few men who do backbreaking work. This is mostly outlawed now. People work to earn a living, we don’t go around thanking people for their contributions in general, many women work in care (both elderly and young), which is a lot more backbreaking than working on a building site!!

It’s about choice. Toxic femininity is about encoring these female stereotypes of women being subservient to men to the detriment of women. That does not promote choice. Not every woman and man is cut out for the traditional gender stereotypes that precede us - thank god we have more of a choice now.

I have to be honest I have next to no idea about what's going on in India right now. I do remember some truly awful things from a few years ago, but I've been so caught up in things closer to home. I feel quite guilty admitting to that, but there it is. You only have so much headspace, and when something new and awful is happening every day, it's easy for other issues to fade into the background. For me at least.

Feminism is a political movement based on a system of belief, hence it is referred to as feminist “theory”

feminism is a radical figure extreme left fringe group that has permeated all aspects of western society

Feminism has evolved dramatically in recent waves & bears no resemblance to the issues 1st wave feminists represented

feminism focuses on male led violence & disregards issues involving female aggression like male & lesbian partner domestic violence victims, infanticide, abusive mothers & women who commit murder

feminism promotes shaming & emasculating young men which is damaging for their psyche & self esteem, as it holds them responsible as a homogenous group for harming women, when they have no control over the actions of a rapist or criminal

feminism shuts down discussions & issues relating to men’s interests & rights in society. They lack knowledge or understanding of men’s related issues but expect to be understood by men

feminism reduces complex social issues to a patriarchal conspiracy & toxic masculinity without considering other factors at play

feminism demands gratitude & respect from men without giving gratitude & respect to men in return for the good they offer to society

feminism has gone too far & alienated men by demonising them. This is causing more men to become mysogynistic, as evidenced by the rise of the “Manosphere” and men’s rights movement

feminism fails to acknowledge that men do the vast majority of hard labour jobs in society that are dangerous & undesirable, that without men society would fall apart rapidly

feminism demands men adhere to expectations & encourages women to have high standards but rejects any expectations or standards men may have of women as “mysogynistic”

Feminism fails to recognise that throughout time when men & women had separate, defined roles that this structure was successful for so long was be a se it was intended to be complementary, not competitive

these separate, defined roles / responsibilities meant there was no need to bicker about chores or who’s turn it was to do their share in the home, as men were expected to be the sole providers & women were charge of the home, with plenty of time in the day to do their share

That's a lot of words. You could just have said 'I hate feminism ' and have left it there. Because what you have written is nothing more than your opinion.

You only have to look at India to see we have it pretty good, huh

men stuck in 3rd world countries aren’t likely to having the best of times either

you should watch that doco on the shipping container wrecking yards in India & see if you’d enjoy having to do that back breaking, dangerous job to support your family so they didn’t starve to death

I’m not sure where you’re getting this definition of feminism from, but it’s nothing like anything I have seen or heard!

I am not sure why you are pushing your feminine toxicity rhetoric of trying to keep women subservient?!

’men & women had separate, defined roles that this structure was successful for so long was be a se it was intended to be complementary, not competitive ‘ - there have been many instances in history where defined roles have been ‘successful’ economically, slavery for example. I wouldn’t want a return to that any more that I want to see a return to one sex having to be responsible for financial provision and one for domestic.

Don’t you think it’s best if people are free to do what they think is best for themselves? What if the women is better at financial provision and the man is better at domestic tasks? In that relationship the two people are doing exactly what they want and it affects nobody else!

I’m sorry your life hasn’t worked out the way you want it to, but taking choices away from other people isn’t going to improve your life at all.

Will you ever get to fck. If the men are having a hard time, you can be sure the women are having it worse.

At least we now know what OP wants: to go back to The Good Old Days when women knew their place.

And they're free to want that for themselves, of course. Just not for the rest of us.

So can you confirm @JordanPeterson that you want to take choice away from women, or only from yourself? There's nothing stopping you from being a surrendered wife, you know.

If men & women are equal

you can stop after that first few words. They should be but they aren't. The rest is piffle. HTH

Women have too much freedom and too many opinions so men are having to stage a revolution to put women back in their place ( which is in the kitchen and on their backs I'm guessing).

If male violence is not men's responsibility to address, then whose is it? Misogynistic men are not going to listen to women, are they? So who is supposed to lead them? Who is supposed to show them how women should be treated?

If you are indeed a woman, you have no idea how lucky you are if you think you have it rough now. You are so blind to how privileged you are that you actually wish it away. Unbelievable.