Toxic femininity?

[JordanPeterson]

If men & women are equal

Then it stands to reason that toxic femininity is a real phenomenon

However it does not seem to be widely acknowledged or permitted to be discussed in society

As a 40 something woman have experienced this phenomenon & read of it here

Examples that spring to mind include:

• Culture of "cliques" which often lead to bullying & ostracising behaviour
• Using tears as a manipulation tactic
• Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman
• Judging others for different life choices (Eg: not having a career, being "broke")
• Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas
• Focus on appearance (Eg: minimising the risk of botox/plastic surgery to others, reluctance to form friendships with those they perceive as "daggy" - see cliques)
• Obsession towards drinking wine as a personality trait

Now many women do not partake in such negative & socially damaging behaviours

& most of these examples are of toxicity towards other women which is interesting

But that doesn't mean that toxic femininity is not real, does it?

Are we just our own worst enemy?

AIBU to find the culture of toxic femininity worthy of discussion?

@CreateAUsername2024 you've not read the full thread, have you?

Oh crap, it's breeding!

Honestly no and tbh I probably won't I usually find these threads quite depressing but wanted to comment as it's rare to see a perspective like the Ops.

If you really want to see OP's POV I would absolutely recommend you read at least OP's posts. Because according to them, everything bad in the world is down to feminism and life was better in the 1950s when it was still legal to rape your wife. Also women shouldn't work and should be grateful to their men for bringing home the income, and having sex just because it's enjoyable is wrong. It's not a positive perspective, and OP doesn't understand what toxic femininity is.

Nail...on....head...

• Not all men were conscripted during WW2
• We acknowledge the hard work women did in WW2, but they were not solely responsible for keeping the country running
• During WW2 there was a sense of national pride & women rallied around the troops, giving acknowledgement that men were fighting for the country & dying to protect their way of life

• Sneering at traditionalism does not allow space for acknowledging cultures & societies where traditional systems have benefits for both sexes both in the past + present day
• In the past marital rapes did occur, but there were also many happy marriages
• Women in the past faced less risk than they do today in regards to date rape culture, STIs & abandonment during pregnancy
• Women today often feel overworked, stretched thin & stressed out due to juggling responsibilities of both career & home life
• Feminists are quick to point out the negatives of the past, but conveniently ignore the present day negatives many women experience due to the impact of the sexual & economic revolution

• In regards to dangerous/trades jobs - yes women are also employed in these sectors, but they are still supported by men in those roles
• You don’t see teams of female only operated trades companies, as the female tradesperson is supported by her male tradie coworkers who take on the jobs that the female tradie may struggle with
• Female tradies are valuable employees but in general they cannot perform the entirety of work in that industry alone
• While it is possible for there to be female only trades companies, the female employer would need to hire a greater # of women to achieve the same result in the same timeframe, meaning companies would have to pay employees twice as much to get the same job done in the timeframe required which does not make economic sense
• This is why we refer to labour work as "manpower" - it takes more women to achieve the same amount of "manpower" than men

• If all women were polled & offered to wipe all men off the face off the earth today, but she would have to go work in the sewers tomorrow, many women would not be keen to accept this offer
• If either sex was erased then we couldn’t procreate - in the immediate future men would fare better than women due them being responsible keeping the very basic services running which we take for granted

"During WW2 there was a sense of national pride & women rallied around the troops, giving acknowledgement that men were fighting for the country & dying to protect their way of life"

If you want to talk of toxicity then the glorification of war to prove feminism is bad is beyond the pale.

For those with an interest in military and motherhood this is fabulous piece of art https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-23/act-portrait-breastfeeding-servicewoman-wins-napier-waller-prize/101176262

I love this quote from the artist "While pregnant with our first child I planned my return from maternity leave, blind to the person I would become when promoted to mother."

Yes the glorification of war is a bad thing

Millions of young men suffered & died in WW2

Men who were either conscripted with no choice

Plus all the men who willingly chose to serve & defend their country

The average man & woman suffered terribly during WW2, it was brutal

But at the end of the day it wasn't women stuck in the trenches

To discount that men had a hard time in the war is insensitive & biased

If all those soldiers injured & killed had all been women

Then feminists would the first to applaud them for their bravery

& ensuring we were all aware of the exploitation / suffering of female soldiers

& even all the women soldiers who weren't injured would be seen as victims

Because they were forcefully conscripted & had no choice in the matter

Wow she had her baby in the trenches?

That's some pretty irresponsible parenting

If a man took his child to war & made him be on the front line beside him

He would be torn to shreds

Oh wait, Retired major Anneke Jamieson was a military civil engineer

She managed a troup of male engineers who built base camps in Afghanistan

She wasn't in the trenches at all & neither was her baby

My mistake

Lucky she had all that manpower at her disposal to build the base camps

Or she would have failed in her mission

Oh just dripping with misogyny.

When feminists can't respond to fact based logic

They will always revert to calling it "misogyny"

It's a great way to deflect & avoid responding to said facts & logic

Just like when a trans activist is presented with basic facts

& they cry "transphobia"

Forgive me for taking the piss

When I see a post featuring a female soldier breastfeeding her baby

& Google her military occupation + actual contribution to the war

It's almost like the image of this breastfeeding soldier is dare I say it

Feminist propaganda?

Put up a logical argument. It's 20 odd pages and several days and you haven't got one. The premise of this thread isn't logical. You keep resorting to name calling and sealioning.

Please quote where I have called you or anyone else here a name?

Back on topic:

“Breast is best”
“Women who have C-sections aren’t real mothers”
“Real women have curves”

All examples of toxic femininity, promoted by women & harmful to women

Ok here we go. Breast is best was developed by formula manufacturers in response to the WHO code on infant marketing. Not toxic femininity.

As I said much early have a read of The Politics of Breastfeeding.

But couldn't you easily just post some points from the book here?

It sounds like you've read the book yourself so you must know the talking points

What is stopping you from just telling me yourself why breastfeeding pressure isn't an example of toxic femininity?

Are you going to blame the social pressure to breastfeed on evil Capitalism again...

Also you didn't quote me on where I supposedly called you, or anyone else a name

It's almost like you're deflecting & intentionally not properly responding to my arguments...

Your not responding to my logical rebuttal of my arguments against yours.

Why do you think breastfeeding fell out of favour? When do you think that happened? Who benefited from women not breastfeeding? Who wanted to start breastfeeding being seen as.normal again? Why would they want that? What could.be the befit in them doing something about it?

Do you know the answers? Can you then put a logical argument together as to why breast is best is toxic femininity? As so far all your logical argument seams based on your thoughts.

This is from business magazine rather than feminist publication. Talking about the nestle milk nurses using the phrase "breast is best" as part of a formula sales pitch to mums. Even earlier than the WHO which honestly probably had a feminists helping out on. https://www.businessinsider.com/nestles-infant-formula-scandal-2012-6

Oh and you should have a read up on the history of ABA the foundering mothers were not feminist. In fact discussion of that sort of thing is pretty much banded.

Yes the WHO created rules for not marketing infant formula

But formula companies did not coin the phrase "Breast is Best"

Companies don't market their products by telling you it's not the best option

The Global Breastfeeding Collective (women run) who came up with high target figure aiming for over 70% of women to be breastfeeding as a goal

Then in the 1970s a woman wrote a book to help improve breastfeeding rates, called it "Breast is Best" and thus the catchy phrase was coined?

Just because the WHO restricted marketing of baby formula doesn't mean that women themselves didn't come up with the phrase

& continue to repeat this phrase, perpetuating a message that puts unfair pressure on new mums

I suppose you could blame capitalism in a roundabout way, because the author must have made a lot of money from her book!

Still doesn't mean that women aren't responsible for creating the term "Breast is Best" & keep pushing it onto new mums today though, does it....

Did you read the article? Why the milk nurses used the phrase? You keep thinking you are talking logically but you are missing huge chunks of the picture.

Anyway this has been pointless and irating. I am sure you will feel your superior intelligence and logic has won out. It hasn't I just don't want to play chess with a pigeon.

Yes, the founders of the original breastfeeding association were not feminists

Because like I keep saying, feminists were a far left fringe extreme group, a minority of women

So it makes sense that the founders of the breastfeeding association did not identify as feminists

Breastfeeding fell out of favour because it was seen by women as a low class thing that you only did if you couldn't afford formula

Are you willing to admit that women coined the phrase, keep repeating it to other women today & that this may be harmful to new mums?

The article is behind a paywall, but do appreciate you linking to what appears to be an neutral article that wasn't written by a gender studies graduate

Still doesn't change the fact that "Breast is Best" is a pretty good example of toxic femininity though

Don't even know where to start with this screed....

Do you ever, ever consider providing a single shred of evidence for all your assertions? Putting things in a bulleted list doesn't make them anything other than your thoughts.

Honestly your main contentions are that feminism is a fringe movement AND that it has taken over the western world and chokes out any alternative views because of it's almighty power of... Sneering? That sneering at "traditionalism" literally takes away the space for it?

Your contention that marital rape wasn't exclusively a bad thing because "there were also many happy marriages" - these were happy accidents. Any time the man chose to change the game he could, and the woman could do NOTHING. She had no legal recourse, no financial independence, no social structures to support her to escape. Happy marriages were in the gift of the male partner. There are still happy marriages today, but where they are unhappy the woman has the right and ability to leave. Why is this a bad thing???

And the "manpower" comment 😂😂😂😂 it's a leftover bit of language, like "acts of God" on insurance forms. Not a literal unit of measurement.

And yes this is the ultimate game of chess with a pigeon.

I am interested to know though, OP - do you like being able to read and write? To vote in elections? Do you like the fact you were able to choose your husband, instead of having him selected for you by your father? Do you like the fact he can't rape you if he chooses without fear of consequences? Are you happy about the fact that if you were raped by another man, he'd more than likely be sympathetic and angry on your behalf, rather than consider you "soiled goods" and divorce you? Are you pleased that if you choose to prosecute your rapist in court, you will be permitted to testify, and that your testimony will be accorded the same value as a man's instead of automatically reduced to half as valuable (as is the case in some "traditional systems" still at work today)? Are you pleased that if you do, one day, have children, and your husband later leaves you, he will not automatically get awarded some custody? All these rights are gifts from the "radical fringe movement" you think has done women so much harm. Being accorded out basic humanity is not something that happened all by itself; it was fought for. By feminists.

And yes many modern women are stressed out and tired. So were many women in the past. What is your point?