Can school do this? - managed move

[Bonnyswannie]

My dd is struggling at her very strict academy school. Whilst it works for some it does not for my dd and she has gone from well behaved to being pulled up for things like uniform and forgotten items to now what they call disrespectful behaviour
my dd worries about school a lot at home and we applied to a new school that is less strict about u forms and bags and I felt may be a better match.
my dd has a lot of negative behaviours points and a 1 day suspension since year 8 - nothing before that.
the new school has accepted and it’s all going through yet today my dd’s current school said they would speak to new school as due to her negative behaviours she would need a managed move. I called them this morning for help as dd was up worrying last night and not wanting to come and now we are being told this.
i asked for this in writing and they have said the new school could request due to the amount of negative behaviours. Can they do this?
my dd is undergoing assessment for ADHD she’s not aggressive or nasty or anything she does forget stuff and she can back chat . Some lessons she excels in and there are 3 subjects she is rarely in as Sw gets sent out for back chat about things that are missing. Not ideal but dd says they talk to her like crap and it makes her feel shit

@Bonnyswannie you say your daughter is undergoing assessment? Depending how far down the path you are, you can ask your GP for right to choose and choose a private practice. There's still months long waiting lists due to demand, but quicker than years!

Also, look up "ordinarily available practice" in your local authority. This is what the school should be doing without an EHCP. EHCP are taking way longer than the statutory 26 weeks, you say she's year 8 now. So really you want the new school to do everything they can to support her as if her ADHD is diagnosed (if she's been accepted onto the ND pathway, there's a good chance she is) and if that's not enough, work together to submit a needs assessment request before the end of year 8. The only criteria are the child may have SEN and may need additional support.

Help her out as much as possible. My DD is AuDHD. She's no longer attending school after burnout 15 months ago but, prior to that, we'd prepare her school bag together. One pencil case remained in her bag, she had another in her room for homework so no need to remove the school one, and a check each weekend whether any equipment was missing. I bulk ordered protractors and rulers from ebay as they were constantly going missing! Checklist in her room for getting ready, checklist on the front door before leaving the house. Post it note on car dashboard! Whatever needs to be done to support the executive function - it's not a case of her learning to remember, she simply can't, that's her disability. It's about recognising what she struggles with and finding the right tools to support.

Apologies for grammatical mistake.

i don’t believe a school would do a managed move for the reasons stated.

i feel there has to be more to this story than being stated.

managed move is the step before exclusion from a school. I can’t believe they would go to this length over a rolled up skirt, it’s just not worth the hassle.

there’s just such a feeling of us and them on this thread. The teachers at the school, even if not always on your child’s side want the best for your child - that’s it. No teacher goes into the job for any other reason, no matter how senior they are.

I will say that I’ve been sworn at so much more recently and it’s almost become acceptable to do. Parents don’t seem to care their child has sworn at a teacher. If I’ve been sworn at, and I’m good at behaviour management, and very little consequence happens (after school detention….!) I cannot believe the OPs daughter is having a managed move for some very minor infractions. It doesn’t add up.

we are so quick to label as an undiagnosed SEN and how difficult it is for the child. In the mean time there’s a class of 29 having to wait to learn, possibly with their own needs.

If child is so great and it’s the schools fault, accept the managed move they will pass with flying colours.

I know plenty of my colleagues who teach because they like their subject and routine etc but simply cannot get their heads around the idea that some children cannot fit the mould and that they are the ones who need to adapt by helping them to manage their equipment, notes, maybe keeping their folder in the room so it's always there. Little things that can make a huge difference. My form class often speak to me about two colleagues in particular who are so inflexible and unimaginative in their approach. One gives sanctions for homework missed because the students were out of school on a school sports tour with no access to devices or time to do it.

Only the op knows the extent of her DDs behaviour and some posters on here are displaying appalling attitudes to a disabled child because they are so determined to stick to mantra that everyone CAN conform if they are sufficiently terrorised into it. Sad.

Get her on Elevanse or the other ADHD med asap. Life changing for my 14y old DD

It’s an opportunity for a fresh start and to find ways to manage the organisational difficulties she has. Folders and pencil cases have been mentioned and maybe trays labelled with the days of the week, so she has the right equipment and books at a glance. I’d suggest checklists in prominent places, so you only leave the house after you’ve both checked that she has what she needs.

Not easy to start with, but will become so when you’ve got into a routine.

I hope it’s a positive move.

This reminds me of my ds in year 3 pre asd diagnosis.

Teacher "miniweird. You've been looking out of the window for the past 5 minutes of my input. Have you been listening to- what did I say?" (Paraphrased)

DS "<starts to repeat it back word for word>"

Luckily he had a great teacher who saw the funny side and told me that she learnt a lesson that day herself and realised he didn't need to be looking to learn and he took more in if he wasn't made to feel uncomfortable by looking at her all the time.

Her crap? How disgusting.
she is not being managed move not sure how many times I need to write that
I have been completely honest

Yes this is what has happened i have had extensive conversations with DD about how this comes across. im sure I will get accused of sticking up for my daughter on this thread (madness) but she has made huge efforts with this but can only manage it by keeping her mouth shut, because now she has learnt to not trust her immediate reaction (impulsiveness) unfortunately taking her time to answer or not answering is viewed as rudeness too. She has an amazing tutor at the school she is currently at who see’s this and has advocated for her.

And if you read my posts you will see I did not believe it too, hence my posting It.

I agree with this.

FWIW, I don't understand why the current school is saying it has to be a managed move. Usually a managed move comes about when a child is at immediate risk of exclusion but there are mitigating circumstances which mean that no one wants the move to be a punishment for the child. Have you been told that she's at risk of exclusion if she doesn't move? If not, I'm honestly not sure what business it is of the current school's.

@veryangrymot where does the OP say the DD was shouting abuse at teachers?

Sometimes MN reads like the daily fail comments section.

One of the criteria for exclusion is that the child is involved in persistent disruptive behaviour - i.e. it's not so much the individual incidents in themselves, it's the quantity and impact of them. So yes, in a sense you can end up being excluded because of minor uniform infractions - if you're doing them all the time, not listening, persistently ignoring the teacher.

I've met parents who will say their kids were excluded for chewing gum, when it wasn't the chewing gum but the repeated incidents, refusing to put it in the bin when asked, defying the teacher etc - in some situations like this the whole class can be quite substantially disrupted whilst the class teacher is trying to sort the situation out, or having to send the child to the head. Or get a more senior member of staff out of the class they're teaching to resolve this situation, so that two classes have their learning interrupted. And then having other children saying things like "well, X does this and nothing happens to them" or "what does X have to do to get into trouble" (yes, children do ask their teachers these things). Etc.

I don't know if this is the case for you, OP, and I have a huge amount of sympathy. It's sometimes the case that persistent disruptive behaviour is happening because the school isn't making small adjustments that would really help the child to cope in class. So no presumptions here. I'm just explaining to others how you might have a situation where to a parent it really does look like the child is being excluded because of a minor incident, but it's actually the last straw in a series of incidents that over time has a real effect on discipline and learning within the classroom.

(couple of small edits for clarity/better phrasing)

One of the schools in our city has a shed outside and kids have uniforms and equipment checked before entering. This is such a power trip and ridiculous waste of teaching time. Frustrating and embarrassing for children that just don’t have resources at home. This school is in the middle of a few bad housing estates with known social issues I feel so sorry for the kids that the teachers can’t keep a pot of pens or whatever to help support there education and there being treated like this it’s so sad! I read an article yesterday about a school locking toilets during lessons. Our children are being treated appallingly at some schools. I as an adult can use a toilet whenever I like it’s controlling and wrong to do this to them and wrong on every level. Prisoners have access to toilets. I will be looking very closely at schools when it’s time for my primary aged children go! I totally understand you wanting to move your child’s school before this treatment affects her even more!

a suspension is pretty last resort for something serious
This sounds insane but nowadays it really doesn't seem to be, in my son's school they seem to suspend quite readily. When we were in school you rarely heard of it (I think twice and it was for serious bullying stuff and the hugest deal at the tiem, we were all shocked) but now my son tells me almost weekly of people being suspended. Not for teeny tiny things-eg they get detention if the teacher decides it for them forgetting something, but there's been suspensions for boys not doing homework a few times and not offering a note or them talking back to a teacher more than once. I know there's a line, but I think back to our school and the messing that went on (we had a lot of the 'cool' girls int he class that would talk back all the time and made a few teachers leave the room upset) and it definitely feels like suspensions are held as an alternative to detentions

the new school have since confirmed that this is not a managed move as the behaviour is low level.

I'd go with what the new school says and ignore old school and put them behind you both as soon as possible.

I was shocked at SLT attitude towards DS - child teachers described as polite and hard working - also shocked they put huge pressure for this "difficult" child to stop for A-level with them.

Hopefully the assessment for ADHD ans new school will help have suggestions on support for her.

If behavioural issue persist as new school - then I would focus on her and her attitude till then I'd just assume bad fit with school ethos and child - and new environment and better support will hopefully see a return to old child - moving on certainly helped DS.

OP I have twins in y7 - one of them sounds quite like your DD in terms of organisation. The other is a bit better but still needs a heap of support.
Me or DH have to pack bags with them every night. Everything has to be checked and double checked. Lists are up on the wall. Things are printed out as reminders, a cork board in the kitchen with exactly what is needed every day and a large time table highlighted with things like P.E and food tec.
Mornings I am with them every step going through everything in their bag, including lunch and water.
Uniform is organised by me and laid out / hung up in the same place.
And even then a few times things have been missed but it’s usually ok with this method. Takes a LOT of my input for 2 children.
They are getting better.. slowly. But I will not have them in detention / behaviour points every day. Just incredibly damaging to self esteem and can trigger a downward spiral in both the kid and the teachers attitude towards the kid.
Is this what you are doing at home? Exactly how much support are you giving your DD daily to make sure she has everything she needs?

Is this what you are doing at home? Exactly how much support are you giving your DD daily to make sure she has everything she needs?

That's a good point - we did scaffolding well into secondary school - literally years starting in primary to get routines drummed in - tick lists and verbal door checks to point they do it themselves - what they have that day.

That slowly happened around Y8-9 - they have a two week timetable as well so it took time.

As a teacher, a managed move is not done for small reasons, so I’m sorry but your daughter’s behaviour must be worse than you think. If she’s back chatting- imagine the the impact on the teachers who are human at the end of the day but also disrupting other children’s learning. I get complaints for parents about other children’s behaviour disrupting their children’s learning, the school might not tell you about this as some children do t want to be identified, but they will need to consider them too. Managed moves involve a lot of paper work and the new school can return them after a certain number of weeks if they think it’s not working, so it’s not gone into lightly. The way you describe how your daughter says ‘ they speak to her like crap” is that just teachers just trying to hold her behaviour to account. I feel you’re making excuses for her. ADHD or not, she should be going to lessons and you need to be firm with her and support the teachers otherwise she will think she can get away with more and more. I’ve seen it happen. Teachers don’t make up stuff for nothing- neither have the energy or inclination!

As a teacher, you should brush up on your reading comprehension.

DD's school did not offer a managed move. OP applied for an in year transfer at another school, that school accepted her DD. It was only when her current school found out about the move they decided it should be a managed move and are trying to make OP accept that.

It's irrelevant if OP's DD is devil incarnate, they can't stop an in year transfer or demand it's done as a managed move.

If she’s still on roll at the old school they keep the funding. If they’ve lost that many pupils in that space of time they’re starting to realise that parents are removing their children. It also means that each individual pupil then equals a greater percentage for grades and it’s harder to hide the lower grades. Bad results mean fewer parents will place their kids there. Sod ‘em. Move your daughter. You don’t need a managed move if the other school has agreed to take her. Education shouldn’t traumatise kids.

@Bonnyswannie

From what you originally posted and before posters got hung up on various things.

You applied for the new school, the old school had nothing to do about it.
They cannot say that it is a managed move as they have not organised anything.

They should send your DD's records across (although many don't).

It seems to me that the old school is trying to stir up trouble for you and your DD.

I would ask them why they are saying its a managed move when they haven't done anything towards it, and get it recorded that you believe that they are trying to cause you and your DD issues.

And as others have said keeping her on the roll at the school gets them the money.

For a teacher you sure do struggle to comprehend OP’s posts.

Your son is lying 🤣 schools have to answer for each and every suspension and prove they're justified. Suspensions are absolutely not given for missing homework. Can't cope with the parents who believe things like this.

It does sound like you are minimising her behaviour. I used to work in a school until last year (not a teacher but in a support role) and schools don't turn to managed moves for any pupils apart from those with the most persistent behaviour issues.

I would try to work with the school to find out what are the main issues and the small issues to try to help your daughter transition to the new school.