Can school do this? - managed move

[Bonnyswannie]

My dd is struggling at her very strict academy school. Whilst it works for some it does not for my dd and she has gone from well behaved to being pulled up for things like uniform and forgotten items to now what they call disrespectful behaviour
my dd worries about school a lot at home and we applied to a new school that is less strict about u forms and bags and I felt may be a better match.
my dd has a lot of negative behaviours points and a 1 day suspension since year 8 - nothing before that.
the new school has accepted and it’s all going through yet today my dd’s current school said they would speak to new school as due to her negative behaviours she would need a managed move. I called them this morning for help as dd was up worrying last night and not wanting to come and now we are being told this.
i asked for this in writing and they have said the new school could request due to the amount of negative behaviours. Can they do this?
my dd is undergoing assessment for ADHD she’s not aggressive or nasty or anything she does forget stuff and she can back chat . Some lessons she excels in and there are 3 subjects she is rarely in as Sw gets sent out for back chat about things that are missing. Not ideal but dd says they talk to her like crap and it makes her feel shit

I really don't understand how you can let her act like this? Being suspended in year 8 is so serious.

I never had a detention. If she forgets things in the morning, lay them out the night before. My mum always used to make sure my bag was packed the night before school. By the end of year 7 I was doing it alone and never forgot anything.

How on earth does she forget her shoes????

@concernedchild do you have ADHD?

She's undergoing assessment.

As are about 5 kids in each of my classes. By year 8 it's unlikely it wouldn't already have been picked up. Her behaviour sounds very typically teenage pushing against the rules though, I'll give you that.

Lord I think she's doing fine OP - hopefully next school is more supportive and she'll thrive there.

Honestly im blue in the face for telling her about this bloody skirt but she doesn’t listen even though she ends up in 1.5 hour detention from it. the skirt is one that needs to be halfway down the knee and she is rolling it up to above her knee thankfully no bum on show.

We have had Pe kit, pencil case, bags, books, shoes everything go missing
a spare pencil case is a good idea. We have a draw at home that I keep topped up but she says she forgets.
I did order an organiser to put on the fridge for reminders the other day. Unfortunately I very likely have adhd myself although I have learnt survival techniques. Someone said how can she forget her shoes, and how can I not notice. On one occasion she got in the car with shoes for some reason took them off in the car then got out the car forgetting to put them on until she got to the front gates of the school. I had to drive back to give them to her. I did not expect her to get out with no shoes I don’t think she even expected that herself. Some mornings it’s like the Benny Hill show.

As a parent of a child with ASD/ADHD I say get her into the new school as soon as possible. It's not going to get better where she is.

Some schools think you can simply punish the neurodiversity out of a child - you can't. Her executive function will worsen because she'll be anxious about what she's going to be punished for next. Being constantly in fight or flight mode is no good at all for mental health.

If the new school say she has a place liase just with them and start your daughter there as quickly as you can. You have the right to change schools. Your current school is trying to exert control when actually, if there is no official managed move needed, they don't need to be involved at all.

I worked in education.

Many adhd children worry about going into lessons and going into school. They know that they do things teachers don't like - fiddling, repetitive body movements, constantly forgetting equipment etc.

They also often over-react. Teachers tell them off for not having equipment and they get upset and have a row with the teacher like the teacher is their parent.

It can be really hard to stop that dynamic.

I'd suggest buying multiple pencil cases with the squirmy she needs. Pack her bag with her each night. Try to create a box system of folders and files for each subject.

If she doesn't have a diagnosis,look to get one.if she doesn't have an EHCP look to get one.

Consider medication - it is often at this stage that children with adhd really struggle as they can get into a mindset that the teachers hate them and it's very difficult once you have that.

You are comparing yourself to a child that potentially has a disability. You wouldn’t compare your ability to see with a visually impaired person. The disability is invisible. OP, you are better posting on the SN boards as you’ll just get a lot on ignorance here. Please get in contact with your local SENDIASS for support. If your daughter hasn’t already, please ask school for a SEN support plan to help her get the support she needs from school. You may have a local adhd support group near you that you can tap into.

Suspensions and internal exclusions are really not that unusual. Maybe I see them more in my line of work, but they are used for lots of low-level behaviours that are better managed by reasonable adjustments and SEN support plans.

Yes I have spoken to senco at new school they have been really good, although to be fair so was the senco at the last school and her tutor was really understanding too, it’s just the wider rules of the academy and implementation of this
ywt my dd would be end up in detention with kids arranging for other kids to come to the school with a knife so go figure

That’s exactly what is happening and it’s broken her. She starts very soon

Yes, actually.

Pencil cases - buy a box of these and she takes one every days

www.stationerywholesale.co.uk/small-flat-filled-clear-exam-pencil-case-stationery-set/

If she has adhd you are wasting your time telling her stuff you need to support her to develop routines.

This is exactly what is happening and when I am trying to explain I am made to feel I am not parenting but but I’m just trying to get them to see her side so it can change. She feels it’s unfair and she doesn’t want red marks everywhere on her name so she tries to explain herself then gets in more trouble for back chat .
she told
me she was hitting herself on the head the other day when they issued a detention. Thank you for putting this into words for me because sometimes I just feel like I’m just not able to

Thank you great Idea I will get some

My DD is also at a very strict school. She has sen (diagnosed dyslexia but suspects ADHD too). She is a very well behaved child but does get a lot of misconduct points.

A few of the things that have helped her.
She is doing the secondary equivalent of ELSA. The benefit of this is that she has built a relationship with a safe person, she has a one page profile outlining how her sen presents, what’s she is good at likes and what helps her. I do have to regularly contact the school as it isn’t always followers (DD is academic and masks like a pro so some of the teachers don’t realise.)

DD has a printed timetable in her room in case she needs extra (pe kit etc) but keeps the rest in her bag. I know others who have a checklist at the front door, could say bag, shoes, lunch etc.

@concernedchild then I am surprised you are so unsympathetic and that you don't know that ND (in fact all kids) are different. Just because you never got anything does not = everyone must be able to do likewise. This child clearly needs some more support and strategies in school.

This sounds both very tough for your DD and yourself and I can sympathise. Some schools work for some kids and not for others. So it does sound like a move is the right thing to do.

However, I would also say that it is worth perhaps changing tack with how you explain these things to your DD as it sounds like you both resent the school and the teachers. The best way that I can explain this is to give an example. I have taught many, many kids like your DD and parental support has always been the key to getting things right for them. If you are both approaching the school rules (which apply to everyone) as unreasonable or not applicable to her then that is an invitation to trouble.

Yesterday I sat in my classroom and cried for 30 minutes through my lunch because two Year 8 girls bulldozed the beginning of a lesson because they didn’t want to be there. What had started as a calm, positive beginning was quickly turned into complete chaos by two students who had deliberately arrived late, refused to sit in their (negotiated with them and their parents) seating plan and then announced that they couldn’t be bothered with the lesson because they hated me and the subject to the whole class. We lost twenty minutes to getting them settled and it is the same every lesson. No amount of support/ sympathy/ help seems to make a difference.

So please don’t minimise back chat and lateness and forgetting things. We work endless hours to try to deliver good lesson, only to have the whole thing pulled out from under us by students who treat us as sub-human. They spoke to me like I was a dog and thought it was funny. Which isn’t a surprise because their parents also speak to me like that too.

So in moving schools maybe try to get your DD to think about the fact that those rules are to allow lessons and learning to proceed without interruption. they are trying to control her for the fun of it. They are trying to create a safe and calm environment for everyone.

Detentions and isolations are used frequently in these zero tolerance academies for low level behaviour like being forgetful and disorganised, so even very well behaved children often rack up lots.
It really isn’t a sign of significant behaviour problems that a child has had isolation or internal exclusion.
ND children in particular often can’t cope with the stress anxiety being caused - if the answer was just to tell them to be more organised and less impulsive etc then of course parents (and teachers) would just do that.

@BibbleandSqwauk thanks for being an understanding teacher.

You have my sympathies OP. Can you speak to the new school on Monday and ask them for their take on the school's request for managed move? Maybe put your mind at rest?

Probably pointless but if the current school is insisting on it question them about their policies with regards to making adjustments for disabilities and SEN. But with so many children leaving I can understand why they be panicking.

Good luck x

By year 8 it's unlikely it wouldn't already have been picked up.

Absolute rubbish. Anyone who knows anything about neurodiversity generally, but especially ADHD in girls, will tell you this is not unlikely at all.

Besides, in this case it has been "picked up" by someone as OP has said her DD has been referred for an assessment. You do realise that the waiting list for an ADHD assessment in some localities is 3-4 years? It is wrong to assume that a lack of formal diagnosis means no SEN.

A managed move is a last resort and would not go through on the basis of uniform issues. Take your blinkers off.

With respect to OP, I went to school between 93 and 98 and we all rolled our skirts up. Not to the point of flashing our pants in most cases. Parents and teachers have been telling girls for decades, we would roll it down then roll it back again.

What she (and you) see as her explaining is what the teachers see as back chat.

Example:

Your DD arrives at a lesson. She has lost her pencil case. She sits down, realises she does not have anything to write with, and asks her mate who sits across the classroom if she can borrow a pen.

What the teacher sees:

The teacher has put a starter in the board for the students to get on with for the first five minutes while she does the register.

-your DD is not doing the work (because she doesn't have a pen)

• your DD is calling across the classroom and disrupting others doing their work

The teacher then tells your DD off (on two counts).

Your DD is upset and responds with something like "I was just trying to borrow a pen you can't give me a consequence for borrowing a pan".

Teacher then tells off DD for backchat.

How to fix:

Give her one of the disposable pencil cases I linked to before
Ask the Senco to arrange with her teachers that each teacher has one of those disposable pencil cases for her
Teach your DD to put her hand up and ask the teacher if she can borrow a pen from a friend as she is sorry but she has forgotten hers

Ultimately, if your DD does not have uniform/equipment/etc the teachers will give her consequences (because that is the school behaviour policy). It's a good idea to try to teach your DD some polite forms of words to deal with this as I can guarantee the teachers will see her as very rude.

Sounds like they’re trying to fiddle their stats by making it look like she had to leave rather than escaped.

Be clear to them that it’s not a managed move, it’s a move due to their failure to accommodate a disability, and any attempt to creat a false record will result in a formal complaint which you will not be letting go of until it’s properly resolved via correction of records and a written apology.

They’ll back off.

Just fill in a transfer form and register her at the new school. It doesn’t need to be a managed move. If she has a new confirmed school place tell the school she is leaving, fill in the form and move her.