Buying a house with in-laws

[ohmyohmy123]

My in-laws are in their 80's - both DH and I work full time and have children, pets etc. we live quite close and try our best to support them. They are now at the point that they need regular care which is difficult as we take turns to visit each evening but they are isolated and lonely and it's hard work to try to leave - they find jobs for us to do or complain we've not been there long enough.

DH sibling lives too far and sees them once a month so it's all on us.

They have a cleaner and a gardener but complain about having to pay people when they have family near by. They expect my children to support with gardening etc (they are 12 & 14 and do lots of extra curricular activities so rarely get time. They do small
Jobs like putting their bins out each week but with 2 hours of homework each evening and their clubs I don't feel it's fair to expect more from them.

I cook at their house twice a week to ensure they see us all together but it's not enough for them and they still complain they haven't seen us.

I have seen a house big enough to house us all to enable us to care for them whilst having our own space. It would mean them giving the money from their house sale to help fund it.

I have discussed this at length and father in law is on board- however mil is saying that it isn't fair to sibling as they should have half of the house sale. Whilst I appreciate this - we can mortgage partially to cover it. Sibling is quite precious about it and everything has to be "fair" so they wouldn't be happy about it incase we got more than them.

For example in laws wanted to help us buy our first marital home but sibling complained so they had to half the money between us.

DH says they won't do it because sibling would be unhappy etc. To me it's not about money but about quality of my time. Preparing meals, cleaning, gardening etc whilst raising my children and cooking, cleaning in my own house. It they lived with us it would be easier for me and I know that's selfish for me - but DH expects me to pick up the slack as his job is more physically demanding (mine is mentally demanding).

It is affecting the relationship with my own family as my own mother is on her own and has needs but I always have to prioritise in laws so my mum misses out on my time. I still manage her money, do her shopping etc but she then feels guilty asking for help as
She knows I'm stretched.

I don't really know what I want from this thread - time management advice? Tell me to man up and make DH do the care for his parents, suck it up and get on with it?!

personally living together in one house could be a bad move for you , if their health deteriorated you would get less support as they live with you . In the future they may need to go into care and the value of the house conspired to repay care cost , it may look as though they disposed of assetts to avoid care fees .There is always another family member who resents any financial dealings they don’t approve of and make life even more difficult . Perhaps try and get a social services care needs assessment and they can advise what help to put in place , sometimes elderly people become selfish and have to accept help from caters outside the family and pay for it .All the best to you x

@Winter2020

Even if they go into a home you need someone to be POA, someone to coordinate and be there for appointments with social worker, fill in DLA forms and all that, usually the family do hospital appointments and organise days out (with some support) where possible, they also buy toiletries and clothes, organise hair appointments, podiatrist all that and paying of them. Never mind selling the home and organising all of that/clearing out their effects.

On a given week you can expect to spend 5-10hrs minimum on admin and traipsing around before you even take into account having to visit them which is usually 1-3x a week.

Obviously you have the period of deterioration leading up to getting into the care home - several weeks/months of struggling at home with insufficient support in and out of hospital because most care homes have waiting lists and you need someone to die for your relative to get a place.

You may be in for a rude awakening.

.I would get social services in and organise a care plan, including meals on wheels and some calls for company.

And social services would tell you to bugger off and sort it out yourself. If you have more than £23.5k you’re self funding and they’re not interested. When my mum was immobile and needed personal care for everything they gave me a list of agencies and told me to get on with it. Meals on wheels don’t exist any more.

I don't understand the point about the increase in equity if in laws live a long time with you meaning that the sibling is disadvantaged. If they get their share now, they can invest it in property exactly as you would be doing, and if the value of that property went up, they'd benefit in the same way surely? Why should they also get a share of the increase in equity in your new house?

Also, how would the new house be owned? In your situation I'd only be prepared to do this on the basis that the in laws were gifting the money as early inheritance. Because if you own as tenants in common with in laws owning a share, there could be all sorts of inheritance tax nightmares to sort out on their deaths (depending on how much they're putting in). Or, they could change wills without telling you and leave their share to the sibling!

@BIossomtoes

Health and social care is free in Scotland and Northern Ireland. The home is not taken into account in Wales. There are many local providers of meals on wheels if you look hard enough - ones that will deliver for example several meals once a week for the fridge/freezer.

If in England, social services can still be useful for advice on accessing services and for carrying out needs assessments and getting all of that documented.

Homes aren’t taken into account in England either but every penny of savings is. And you can’t even get an assessment here if you’re self funding. As I found, advice on accessing services amounted to handing over a list of agencies.

Chilled or frozen meals are no use whatsoever to someone without the capability of heating them up. It really annoys me that when someone with direct experience of a situation like this posts here they essentially get told they’re lying.

Depends on your area. DM was assessed by the hospital discharge team as as needing care 4x a day, it was referred to the local authority and they commissioned a care company to do it. As she had savings over the £23.5k limit, she pays the bill - to the council not the care company. If we arranged it privately we’d be paying private rates and paying directly to the care company.

swings and roundabouts in which way is best for you. DMs savings will drop below the limit this year and the council will start contributing soon to the cost. Should be straightforward as they commissioned the care In the first place, just got to do the financial assessment.

@ohmyohmy123 suggest you start having a look at the Elderly Parents board. Plenty of advice in there for dealing with older relatives and help navigating the various care systems. You and DH will need it in the coming years.

@BIossomtoes no one is suggesting you are lying.

I was pointing out that provision varies across the U.K. and locally it can too a great deal.

For us we got 5 calls a day and either carer or we would heat a meal. It was quicker than having to cook from scratch.

Frankly anyone with more than 16k in savings over the age of 70 is a bit mad, unless they are enormously wealthy. There are plenty of ways to divert money well before then.

Sadly people don’t want to lose control though and then they end up in a real muddle.

Just wondering how your weekend has been @ohmyohmy123?

Have there been any further calls from PiL looking for stuff to be done?

Frankly anyone with more than 16k in savings over the age of 70 is a bit mad, unless they are enormously wealthy. There are plenty of ways to divert money well before then.

You think it’s mad to give yourself options? Seriously? If you need residential care you need to pay fees until your house is sold, how do you do that unless you’ve got money in the bank? It can take months for a house sale to go through.

If they can afford to pay for help I’d just go once a week and they can like it or lump it. You have a life to live and don’t need to give up time with your kids.

Absolutely do not have them move in with you- it would be a disaster.

You work full time. It isn't your responsibility to care for both your and your husband's entire family because you're the woman. DH and his sibling can step up.

It sounds like the sensible option would be for PIL to sell their unsuitable house and downsize to a small bungalow with a minimal garden- that would take some of the practical issues out of the equation.

Thank you for asking this - it means a lot.

I refused to get involved this weekend. DH went over today and spent time with them whilst sibling was there. Strangely mil managed to cook but apparently she was asking for me and was exhausted. They all wondered where I was but I managed to shop for my own mum and have a coffee with her so despite still being busy it was nice

I honestly appreciate the support I've received.

Well done @ohmyohmy123 - you need to prioritise your own health & wellbeing, you deserve it!

Go you. I definitely think this is a case of the more you do the more they ask you to.

Strangely mil managed to cook but apparently she was asking for me and was exhausted.

Did your DH tell you this in a knowing way, acknowledging that it’s a bit performative and he and your SiL could easily have done the cooking if it was needed, or was he implying you really should have gone along?

Well done - not wanting care or leaving the house is common (my FIL is on end of life and still wants to return home) but it often isn’t fair on them or the ones who need to do care and you martyring yourself and your children for this just isn’t right

take a step back and make it clear that it isn’t your responsibility

And you currently have A DH issue if he is expecting you to do all of this because he has a physically demanding job

It Takes a whole lot of time though, to do each of the things the OP and her dh has been doing
If the PiL got a Cleaner, that would save OP and her DH perhaps 3 hours a week - more if they are doing laundry / making beds etc
If the PiL got a gardener - an average of 2 or 3 hours (prob more in Summer and less in Winter)
If they used a DIY person they hired in, then lets say an average of an hour a week (probs a lot more)
If they paid someone to do the shopping and come in and cook a meal - even for 3x a week - again, perhaps 4 or 5 hours a week ?

Yes, OP and her dh would still go round and support them, and even enjoy visiting and spending time with them, but they'd save themselves the equivalent of 1.5 - 2 working days every week

@NewName24

as per op’s original post

They have a cleaner and a gardener

The issue is that they are not coping and are lonely and isolated.

OP doing the dinner a few nights a week is reasonable. The kids doing some jobs is reasonable to top up on gardener…..

However, they are at the point where they need someone to come over every night and can’t put their own bin out….

Which is why I think OP pursuing the purchase of a new house is a pointless endeavour…. She needs to crack on with getting them more at home help and building the case that they need to be in a home because they will need evidence to prove there is need and all options have been exhausted.

By the way cleaner £15/hr to do a house and Laundry/beds for 2 people is about 6hrs so £90 a week

Gardener for grass and quick run around maybe £20-40 every few weeks… for a garden with a lot of shrubs/trees it may take several days twice a year to sort…. One of our relations had this - £1700 twice a year.

Handyman £120 a day minimum plus equipment and call out.

To do shopping, travel and put it all away is another £45 at least once a week, and to cook and serve food twice, probably the same or more…. I don’t know because we were never crazy enough to waste money on this.

For the amount of money you are suggesting they pay, when combined with money they’d need to spend on carers too, they might as well go into a home and pay £1500+ a week.

Whenever I read this sort of thread two things spring to mind - the parents need to move into some kind of retirement apartment. If they don't then some life changing event will occurr - which will be the death of one of the party which will force the event. My late parents didn't downsize and my Mum was left with dealing with the large family house.

OP doesn’t need to be doing anything they’re not her parents least of all doing the dinner a few nights a week.

If the sibling wants everything "fair" then they can either provide or pay for 50% of the care needs while you do the other 50%.

They don't get to equally split the parents money without equally splitting the support

@ohmyohmy123 thanks for updating.

You have made a good start and put a line in the sand. DH and SIL will start to realise that it is their problem not yours.

MIL saying she is tired point out DH and SIL could step up.

"Strangely mil managed to cook but apparently she was asking for me and was exhausted."

Did neither of her DCs think to offend to help her, or is that purely your domain ?

You've made a great start, but you need to keep going. I would stress to your DH how good it was to be able to spend time with your own DM. Say that going forward you are going to be spending more time with her, he can't argue with that because he's the one who says you have to support elderly DPs.

Also your own DCs will need lots of attention as they get to exam years, and peace to study at the weekend.

Obviously if there was a genuine care crisis for ILs you would be there to support, just as you hope DH would be for your DM, but you can't continue to be their general cleaner and cooker.