To think why are men still shit?

[Momsitter]

Off the back of another thread I just read...

still thread after thread of abusive men. Calling their wives "fat fucks". Seeing hookers. Cheating. Cocklodging. Financial, physical, emotional abuse.
Still women raising them, marrying them, having 3 kids with them.

We've got better rhetoric and "feminism" in the media and arts, better representation in the workplace and social awareness but really fuck all is changing in relationships, is it? Why is that? What are we missing?

Buy and large women are trained to be obedient, because of this socialization they automatically defer to men put others before them etc. it's very hard to completely break the training because it operates through your unconscious mind.
Also there's a kind of animal instinct: this person is much bigger than me and could easily overpower me and hurt me, that's another reason we tend to unthinkingly defer to men.
Men do it because they are confident they can get away with it, they have been trained to exploit, to dominate and always try to keep the upper hand.

Well it is clear you have never been in an abusive relationship (and I'm glad for you you haven't) and have no idea how they usually work. Your judgmental, victim blaming post shows you don't have a clue.

The desire to be treated with kindness and respect is universal, and it's clear that most people on this forum aim to treat others as they wish to be treated in return. It's essential to acknowledge, though, that everyone can experience difficult periods, whether it's a challenging day, week, or even year. It's relatively easy to maintain relationships when circumstances are good, but enduring partnerships, especially long-term ones, require navigating complexities that aren't always apparent. The notion that some women tolerate less-than-ideal behavior in their partners isn't necessarily a sign of weakness. Often, it's because the dynamics of the relationship have evolved or there's hope for improvement. Recognizing the strength it takes to believe in change and work through tough times is being empathetic, rather than viewing it as a flaw, as you seem to believe.

It depends on what you mean by 'attractiveness', perhaps. I have always taking pride in my appearance, being attractive and pleasing to my own eye. Any attention I got from men was always a side thing, I got attention but most of it was quite respectful. I've had my share of drinks bought for me and numbers slipped to me, but nothing like the horrific stories I hear from some women.

Exactly. You can't expect to use such a sweeping generalisation as: 'Why are men still shit?' on a discussion forum and not expect some posters to respond that, in their experience men - generally speaking - are NOT 'shit'.

It's important to have other points of view. Otherwise, all you've got is a misandrist echo chamber.

It is not 'victim blaming' to state that to continually accept subpar treatment will engender more of the same. You will be treated as you allow others to treat you. I understand that there can be an element of 'frog in boiling water' but a lot of the posts I read on here have me shaking my head and wondering how on earth these women managed to even find such crap men, let alone sleepwalk into a relationship and several children.

'Minsandrist echo chamber' unfortunately describes certain sections of Mumsnet very well, but I'm not here for it. It is a boring, dispiriting, and innacurate way of looking at the world.

As I said, you don't have a clue.

I was once told on here I was naive because I said I was pretty confident that my DH wouldn't murder me one day.

OMG. These people cannot bear the fact that they have picked crap men doesn't mean that all men are crap. They would rather fling out 'not my Nigel' insults than do the work on themselves that would maybe help them understand why they pick such losers. It is sad, really.

Predators will gravitate towards those who are easy victims; those who come from dysfunctional or abusive backgrounds, they have been subjugated and weakened by others and it's easy for the predatory types to step in and take over.

How do you know? I actually pulled the plug on more than one relationship that I didn't like: I don't know if it would have ended up as abusive or not, but I didn't like the way it made me feel, so I ended it and ended up with my wonderful husband. Maybe my picker is stronger, who knows, or maybe I just have a higher self worth so I wouldn't settle. All I know is that I am not stuck with a crap man and miserable kids.

Some of them go for more difficult ones; there's a kind of man who enjoys "breaking" a strong woman.

I'm not saying there aren't.

What I'm saying is that "some" women go into relationships with their eyes open knowing that their bloke is a "bad boy" and then suffer the, usually, entirely foreseeable consequences. Often the signs are there.

Those who are in relationships with blokes who manage to "hide" ALL aspects of being unreliable, criminal, aggressive, etc., have indeed been incredibly unlikely if there were no signs at all and the bloke did manage to pull off a "perfect" image in all aspects during the early stages of their relationship.

I may have a clue.
My MIL was regularly beaten to a pulp by one partner (not DH's dad!). She managed to get out of that relationship eventually but, still to this day, she freely admits she would rather be in an abusive relationship that was 'OK sometimes' than ever be alone.
So, unfortunately, it is a thing.

Women are too quick to move a relationship forward.
How many women do you hear referring to their bloke as their partner when they've only been with them a few weeks and how many move in with their blokes within months of meeting them or worse still, become pregnant.
It's like they're not mentally strong enough to be alone.
They don't take their time to get to know him properly and they allow his behaviours, rather than walking away once the mask slips slightly.
A man will only treat you how you allow him to treat you.
Rather than telling him that they will not tolerate being spoken to / be treated in a certain way, they say nothing and put up with it, only for that behaviour to worsen further down the line.
I had several boyfriends ( I'll call them that, as that's what they were ) before I met my DH and the minute they criticised a family member of mine, a friend, or indeed me, they were dumped. Just the same as they were dumped for behaving badly towards me or others.
One boyfriend appeared to be lovely on the surface, but a few months in, he swore at me in a nasty way while he was attempting to fix something. Dumped, despite his apology!
Another laughed and called me thick because I didn't know the answer to something. Dumped!
Another tried to slide his hand up my top while we were kissing, despite my pushing it away. Dumped!
I had been with each of them for a few months at the point of dumping and that's just a few examples.
These are the sort of behaviours that women today tolerate, then wonder why it gets worse and they're not treated with respect.
I won't put up with a bloke who raises his voice or his hands, regardless of how long I've been with him.
Either treat me with the respect I deserve, or fuck off.

Talking about domestic abuse and exploitation of women by men, and questioning why it occurs is not 'misandry'. And if your only motivation for being on a thread about these issues is to bleat about the semantics of saying men in the title, rather than 'some men'; and your key takeaway from reading about the abuse of women is that we're being unfair to men who don't abuse...well, you need to have a word with yourself.

The short version is that most women would rather be with a shit man than be alone.

and do not forget, from many mens perspectives, there are shit women also.

You're completely twisting what I said. But OK, you do you.

Except that shouting down all women who have decent standards and are dating or married to decent men actually does nothing for the women who are dealing with bad men. If you believe that 'men are shit' in general, then there can be a real 'better the devil you know' built in excuse for not leaving. If more women raised their standards early on and just moved on from the losers instead of ruminating about why they are 'all shit' there would be fewer unhappy relationships.

Either treat me with the respect I deserve, or fuck off.

AMEN to that! 🙌🙌

I don't think you or other posters are being unfair to men who don't abuse. I don't need to defend the good men in my life. They know there are good and bad out there.

I do think a bunch of women agreeing with other that all men are awful is unhealthy though.

To be fair to the OP, that isn't what she invited us to do. She asked why we thought that these types of behaviour continue. I think that's a valid and useful question because understanding cause is vital to addressing the problem. It stands to reason that with such an emotive topic women will want to share their personal experiences of abuse as part of that discussion. Many survivors do indeed find it therapeutic and healthy to do so in a supportive environment. I don't think they should be begrudged a space for that on one of the only women centred forums available.

Lets keep the blame for abuse firmly where it belongs which is 100% at the feet of the abuser. Lets not muddy the waters with turning it around of women for what they 'tolerate'. Lets keep the focus on the abusive person.

Talk of what women tolerate and individual anecdotal stories does not help women living with abuse. This sort of talk only compounds the shame that these women already feel for living in the relationships they are. These things further erode the self esteem of the abused. These are the things that keep women in abusive relationships. The abusers rely on the shame the abused feel, they rely on these women feeling like they are nothing. The abuser is already telling the abused that it is all their fault, they don't need more voices in the crowd compounding this false information. It is not ever their fault.

Lets remember abuse is not always physical. Abuse is not always overt. You have no idea what is happening behind closed doors. I can also guarantee you that some of the men you know or have known who you think are 'good men', when they get home and they are alone with their wives are not good men at all.

I think 'blame' isn't the right term but my father was a gambler, almost lost the house with a wife and four young children under 7. I asked my Mum why she let him go on for so long, cossetted and looked after him (and us). They divorced when I was 17 at my Mum's behest.

She said that it was the thing to stay together for the children. That's possibly true but I also think that women's longing to be mothers, have a family, blinds them to the flaws of their men. Some of those flaws are deep cracks but, biology.

Dismantling the CSA should have led to the rebuilding and establishment of a far more powerful entity to force men who father children to pay for them, pay properly and not receive a single penny in benefits themselves until those children are paid for. It's still kinder than my solution of castration.

Women do get a raw deal because, biology along with societal pressure and lack of support. It's so wrong.