To think why are men still shit?

[Momsitter]

Off the back of another thread I just read...

still thread after thread of abusive men. Calling their wives "fat fucks". Seeing hookers. Cheating. Cocklodging. Financial, physical, emotional abuse.
Still women raising them, marrying them, having 3 kids with them.

We've got better rhetoric and "feminism" in the media and arts, better representation in the workplace and social awareness but really fuck all is changing in relationships, is it? Why is that? What are we missing?

I think what we're missing is that no matter how shit the average man is (and they are on average shit) women still want to have a child.

I think we should start to have co-parenting arrangements. Legal ones. If we entered into these arrangements with 50% of our time free, we could also throw ourselves into earning. We see marriage as the ideal or the goal or the protection, but marriage doesn't make a man a good father.

We need to reject the shame that comes with being a single parent or a single woman. If our achilles heel is that we want to be mothers, let's still do that, but with a contract that obligates the father to put his money and his efforts and his time where his mouth is. Sign here buddy.

That would be a neat way to pretend that rubbish men were only the problem of rubbish women. Except for the somewhat inconvenient point that a selfish arsehole would never be happy in a relationship with another selfish arsehole, would they? Practically, how could that possibly work, if both refused to contribute to the household, the childcare, both expected their needs to be paramount and ignored those of the other? Selfish arseholes can only be happy in relationships with people who will meet their needs, and the last people to do that are those just like them. Nice try though!

Yes, I was guilty of this in my 20s. But I was raised to be no trouble, raised to be accommodating and to not verbalise my own needs. To be honest, I didn't realise I had needs until i was about 36. I was raised to believe that it was completely shameful not to put everybody else first so on one level, my need was to do that. I think part of the cycle of self development and self-awareness is that you only see things clearly when you have your own dependents.

I don't know what the answer is. I have a better relationship with my daughter than I had with my mother. There's no self-image that I INSIST that she reflects back to me.

@5128gap yeh, it's phrased in a variety of ways, givers and takers or internalisers and externalisers, but the two find eachother. because two givers find each other a big vague or a bit uncertain. Two takers find each other intolerable. Back in 1999 (sigh) when I met my x, my core belief was that I wasn't enough and my x agreed so we had that in common. He got to take responsibility for nothing. no batteries in the remote control? My fault. And I did, i felt bad! he lost his job? my fault. no matter how big or small the issue he could persuade himself that it was my fault, and even though rationally, cognitively, i might have been thinking, what an arsehold, i still FELT BAD.

I think women are more susceptible to being in this role because our mothers raise us to be more accommodating to be caring to sort out every small problem before it even presents itself...................................

A lot of women blaming here - I think that's part of the issue.

Do we as women/ society lift up and support women with children who leave shitty partners? Mostly I think not.

Men put up with crap relationships too!

My friend (gay man) found his bf was cheating. Irrefutable evidence. He then continued to live with him for 2 YEARS before they split!

My nanna used to say about her aunt, “Ethel is never happy unless some man is making her unhappy”.

As a child and young woman I thought this was a dreadful sexist thing to say. I’ve now seen enough of life to know there are many Ethels out there.

yeh, even on the thread about paedophiles targeting single mothers yesterday, somebody made a comment about how single mothers basically prioritise sex over their children's needs. But perhaps the need is more social and emotional than just sex? it's not just the relationship that the woman might have with a new man, it is to very basic couple based socialising norms, a ''ticket'' to being included. I never had a boyfriend! I was never included! I got it, I get it. It is what it is. BUT, it's not like society moves to protect single mothers' children by including them in the world of small families.

I get it too. I was an Ethel in my 20s. But when I was an Ethel for the last time, with small children, determined never to be an ethel again, I was alone in that boat because society (which is always somebody else's fault) is just not constructed in a way that makes including single mothers The Norm. As I said, not bitter about it but it did upset me while I was going through it. There's no collective inclination to protect single mothers from the isolation that might make them make poor choices.

“All these women tolerating this crap in front of their kids are raising the next generation of selfish boys who think their needs come above all, and insecure girls who would rather be treated poorly and ran into the ground than single.”

This is probably true but it also spectacularly misses out the actual culprits here. It’s the person dishing out the “crap” ie the dad, far far more than the person who puts up with it. You might as well blame the people who pay gangsters for “protection” etc - well sure, it’s not great but you can’t say they’re the root of the problem.

I do think sadly it is also the case that some women (and some men albeit fewer) will want a partner who treats them poorly. But I’d bet a thousand pounds most of those people have either grown up with abuse at home or have suffered abuse/assault in their early relationships. It’s fucking tragic, and acting like it’s just a fun personal preference is completely disingenuous.

Nail on the head.

The thing is though these toxic relationships don't stop once they leave as they still are in each others lives because of the DC. I have seen this so many times when friends leave these relationships. I'm not saying they shouldn't leave or that eventually/gradually it gets better but initially for many years these men still affect the woman and their DC's lives.

Clearly you don't have much knowledge of domestic abuse.

I’d call the police about this as you’re regularly witnessing domestic abuse.

How many times do you also hear women say “he’s too nice” or even worse “I love bad boys” 🤢.

In real life? Never.

oh god this is so grim...

There’s a lot of victim blaming on this thread.

I was in a relationship for years before the abuse started, which was after we had children.

After that there was emotional abuse (he never hit me), but it happened gradually, like the boiling frog. He also turned everything round and blamed me, which I couldn’t see at the time, so I kept trying to be better.

Once I realised (with help from Women’s Aid) I left, but it was so so hard to do it, because I wanted so badly to keep my family together (and see my kids everyday). In the end, I left for them, because I didn’t want my DC growing up thinking this was normal.

It’s such a hard situation to be in and I’m not sure you can really understand it if you haven’t been through it. I’m glad some people have better relationships than what my marriage was like in the end, but I think it’s partly luck.

From my experience that swings both ways. I have known plenty of people (men and women) who are too terrified of being alone so put up with all sorts of crap and dysfunctionality just so they can be part of 'a couple'. It's depressing.

I think that is such a victim blaming thing to say. It’s really fucking despicable to suggest that some women (perhaps a sister or a daughter) like being abused.

you are part of the reason women don’t leave, because of the shame of not being believed, compounding on top of the shame of having ever got into that mess.
And of course not a peep from you that the onus is on men not to be abusers. All your criticism focused on the women so that you get to feel better about yourself.

Well it’s not about to get any better, because we were told this morning by our Minister of Women and Equality that when men do and say nasty things then apologise, we should forgive them 🙄.

Sounds like those family members who encourage you to hush and stay in shit situations, because John is sorry.

There is still very little support for fighting awful behaviour, so some women will forever be stuck in these circumstances.

Very occasionally. And if you explore with them what that actually means, and why, it's never about wanting a useless waste of space who sits there on the x box in his pants while she runs around after him. Or losing everything she owns to his addictions. Or having him cheat on her or abuse her. It's almost always referring to an image of hyper masculinity. Strong, possibly feared by other men, so able to 'take care of himself' and her, a risk taker who will offer fun and excitement. An image that's been constructed by men to create their own hierarchy amongst themselves and sold to women as desirable.

Watching MAFS Australia and the new generation of women who are raised by strong independent single mothers are an embarrassment.

One, called Tori, will put up with anything her "husband" does and says. Who knows why? But maybe as the first response says, it is better than being alone.

Whereas a whole lot of men have been brought up on a diet of porn. Warped their views on women, and have no idea how to treat them.

I don't think you're exaggerating at all tbf 😂

I am sure most men are not shit. You are only reading posts about the bad men. It is a very biased sample.