To think why are men still shit?

[Momsitter]

Off the back of another thread I just read...

still thread after thread of abusive men. Calling their wives "fat fucks". Seeing hookers. Cheating. Cocklodging. Financial, physical, emotional abuse.
Still women raising them, marrying them, having 3 kids with them.

We've got better rhetoric and "feminism" in the media and arts, better representation in the workplace and social awareness but really fuck all is changing in relationships, is it? Why is that? What are we missing?

Nail on the head.

Some women just aren't choosy enough and will put up with the crap men.

And, no, that's not victim blaming!

I would not read too much into a show that deliberately selects a bunch of selfish narcissistic shitbags on the basis that it makes for 'better' tv.

@Hereyoume "None that I know would ever treat women like that"

Maybe not the ones you know personally. Me neither-oh, except the man who abused my dd for 18 months.

But have you looked at the way many men in public life behave? And how their behaviour is often minimised and excused and if they are politicians they are voted for again? Obviously, NALMALT.

I really believe upbringing plays a massive part. For example.. my partner had his marriage ended by his wife. She had enough of tidying up after him all the time and felt like his mother. Yea he messy and yes it is annoying but it’s not to a level that I can’t bare. Clothes go in the basket and go away etc but it’s more he will do something then leave the mess I moan he cleans. Anyway she couldn’t or didn’t want that, absolutely fine. They have two boys. Those two boys are babied and treated like fucking royalty. They do nothing around the house to help, they get pocket money just for breathing, they have no consequences to their behaviour. There is boundaries or respect for anyone else. I cannot understand why some women are bringing up boys to be so reliant and dependent on women. How can you raise two boys to be the man you ended up despising and divorcing?! It blows my mind. Why would you raise two boys to let other women feel how you felt?! In our house it’s a culture shock because they do have to be responsible for themselves they do have to make their bed/ strip it. Put clothes away, help with stuff around the house. I will not have any part in re-enforcing this bullshit narrative to these two boys that their mother pushes. That is why I think some men are shit because they’ve been brought up to see woman as there to serve them not as their equals or something aspirational.

Women who are raised in homes with violence and abuse will be drawn to men who feel like home. The cycle repeats, often for generations.

This is very true.

I am pretty content with being alone. Have my kids, friends and career so generally happy with life.

However, it’s not necessarily my first choice. Like many women, I imagined a happy marriage with a bloke who would be well versed in equality and feminism. who would treat me like an equal.

I did occasionally bump into these men in my 20’s but now in my 40’s- they’ve disappeared!

so to be fair, for a lot of women it’s a choice of be alone or put up with some kind of twatish behaviour.

It’s a pretty tough choice- and I don’t think men have the same difficulties.

so yes- maybe men put up with less BS from partners, but they can afford to be picky.

All of my friends have settled down now but it was a common theme. I don’t disagree with you- I see teenage boys behaving in this hyper masculine way where I work and can predict the type of men they will grow into.

Women/girls have to stop being passive victims to it though. I don’t think it’s victim blaming to except women to want more than this in the 21st century.

Who's defending them? Abusers are scum.

Sadly I have!

Agreed I’d be calling the police every single time.

You see it on here all the time.

There are plenty of women who are addicted to drama and a volatile relationship. Or if they do meet someone who is more nice and dependable they're tempted to cheat with the hot guy at work or whatever.

Nice men and nice women tend to find each other. Women who are drawn to arseholes and narcs need - for their own benefit - serious introspection to what's made them that way. Maybe it's childhood trauma, maybe they're just arseholes themselves.

We have to look beyond the superficial charm, or how much he earns and see the person underneath. What's his relationship like with his Mum, what's his Dad like, what are his mates like and the people he hangs around with the most. There will always be tells.

Absolutely this. And yes of course men should be better, but the world isn't a perfect place and never will be, so while we can't control men, we can control ourselves and who we choose.

I'tll only escalate as well. Intervention is needed early.

I do to but that is because my Dc have a lovely dad.

Women in long-term, happy relationships have no reason to post on MN. I've been married to a wonderful, loving, giving man for decades, and together we raised a wonderful, loving, giving ds who makes his partner very happy. Good men are out there, but you rarely hear about them on MN because there's no reason to post about them.

I will also say this, which might be controversial--girls raised without fathers tend to settle for less worthy men, because they have no idea of how a good man acts since they haven't seen it modeled in childhood. Our dd is very selective about men because they have to meet the standard she was raised with. She's in her 20s and has only had a couple of boyfriends so far, but they have both been good, decent men who adored her. She's just not ready to settle down yet.

I think it's really insidious. My brother for example is a really nice lovely guy and is also "woke".
But we were home together a few weeks ago to visit, and at lunchtime, he went and made himself the biggest, juiciest sandwich you've ever seen. Cheese, ham, tomatoes, lettuce. Not a problem, except he'd used up everything. All that was left was a tiny chunk of cheddar. So I made this ridiculous sandwich that involved this three slivers of cheddar with just butter. I said "seriously did you not think anyone else would want lunch?". Then my mum came in and I cut mine in half and gave her that.
It's just one dumb example but it says a lot. It's not about pulling anyone up on it either, it's like how could you not even think of that in the first place?

It would be wonderful if women said we won't procreate with these shits, even if it means being alone and we took them out of the gene pool. Not sure if it's nature or nurture, but it would be a start.

This.

Another aspect is that the "good" men aren't on the market as they're less likely to have affairs, divorce, get thrown out, etc., so basically snapped up quickly and then disappear from the dating/matching/meeting scene. I'd venture further and say the reliable (but some would say boring) blokes are less likely to be out pubbing, clubbing, socialising etc., as they'll be happy living a safe and simple family life!

It's the ones who are thrown out, divorced, etc multiple times who keep appearing on the dating/meeting scene, so women who are also on the look out will be coming across "that kind" of man more often. Likewise the men who are in relationships but on the lookout for someone better, are more likely to be those pubbing, clubbing and socialising. It's like a revolving door for people who are older and havn't found "the one", with series of relationships constantly breaking down, and then the subsequent one breaks done too, etc etc., because it's all the same "gene pool" of people who are available in their 30s and 40s.

I think these days, if you don't get in there when you're young and find a decent reliable bloke by your early 20s, you're pretty much stuffed as all the decent/reliable blokes will have been snapped up by someone else and most will be "off the market" for the rest of their natural lives.

I think your first paragraph is interesting. From my observations those 'boring' but otherwise reliable, faithful and non abusive blokes were often overlooked in their 20s as they were not gym bunnies or Mr Funny Confident Alpha Male types. It was only later on when these very same 'boring' men who were now in good careers and generally had their shit together in life were suddenly seen as possessing desirable traits .

I wonder if mnhq are happy about the number of MRA and incels who now post on this site all the time.

I think as well once women mature more they grow tired of the arseholes and toxic men and start to look for other qualities, so men who were passed up in their 20s, or priotritised other things like a career, have a wider pool should they so wish.

Just another thought…

there are lots of posts on here about women putting up with a load of BS from their partners. And being ‘passive’

However, if you look at divorce rates - it’s mostly women who start divorce proceedings.

that suggests that lots of women don’t put up with bad behaviour and/or that men are a bit shit.

I agree with this 100% …you’ve just described dating in your 40’s to a T!

I also tell any young people I know to get in there fast and find someone at uni or early 20’s.

I don’t think I explained what I think very well. I think it’s pretty well established that women are judged heavily for their looks and I think this is very difficult to overcome and ‘not care’ as a woman. I grew up with the message that being attractive (to men) is very important. This of course is not a good thing. What I was trying to get to is that this gives power to men, who act like shits, because women internalize that being ‘wanted’ by a guy, any guy, is better than none. Of course not all women and of course it’s great if you don’t feel this way. But I think a lot of women do whether they realize or not and struggle to overcome this feeling. It’s just my thoughts.