Would you complain about this? (Police behaviour towards a black and potentially vulnerable 16-year-old girl)

[Readytoplay]

TLDR at the end of the post, as this is long but I feel I have to explain the whole situation

Yesterday afternoon I was on a train, departing from a London Terminal. Just after we started moving, a ticket inspection began. The girl (who was black) in front of me didn’t have a ticket. The ticket inspector (White 40s male) was abrupt; and in my opinion rude; with the young lady who claimed she was 16 and homeless. He asked her if she could pay with a debit card, but she told him that she didn’t have one. He then asked her age and she answered 16. He then scoffed “What, you're 16 and don’t have a bank card”. (For what it’s worth I personally didn’t have a bank account until I was 17- and this was only last decade).

He then asked her where she was going. The girl responded with vague answers, such as: “a few stops” or “not far”. He then asked how she got on the train without a ticket and through the barriers. She told him that she ‘just did’. He then asked for a name and address. The first she refused to give and she repeated that she was homeless for the latter, the inspector answered ‘No you're not’, Before asking for some ID. He then left her for a moment after she claimed she didn’t have any, before coming back with an officer from BTP (also a white 40s male).

Now, I always record any encounter I have with the police directly OR if an encounter is happening in my proximity (this was literally the seat in front) so I started filming but with the camera face down so only sound would be recorded. the police officer showed his badge and began to ask for the same information as the ticket inspector. After she repeated what she had already said, he then asked for some ID, before asking what was in her bag and that he was going to search it.

I was about to intervene at this point as I was getting increasingly uncomfortable with the tone and attitude these adult men were having with this young and likely vulnerable lady. Clearly, someone else felt the same and questioned the way the situation was being approached. I then also voiced my concerns and admitted that I was recording this. The other passenger started to tell the men that they thought how they were behaving was disgusting. I commented that if a 16-year-old minor was claiming to be homeless that shouldn’t they be offering them support? They said they would if they had some identification. I tried to explain that she likely doesn’t have anything due to her circumstances and then the part that really annoyed me: “as if she is homeless, dressed in all those brands”. I.E. doubting her circumstances because was wearing a Nike sweatshirt. WTF.

It ended with the other passenger ranting at the cop, before both the guard and cop got off at the next station. And that was that. They didn’t find any ID on the girl, and all that was in her bag were clothes and other personal essentials.

The girl was left visibly shaken and upset. I tried to see if she was alright. She explained to me that she was staying with her BF. I told her of some organisations to contact if she needed any support (Shelter/ Centerpoint). Before she got off I offered to give her a fiver (normally I wouldn’t give money to strangers, but would have in this case) but she declined.

Now, I have no idea if this girl was or wasn’t homeless. But am I wrong in thinking that the behaviour of the cop/train guard was completely inappropriate? There is very little of me who feels this wasn’t racially motivated. The fact that they searched her bag and the fact that both had an abrupt and aggressive attitude toward her really felt like profiling to me. Yes, the girl could have been more cooperative with some of the questions, but the intense questioning, mixed with the dismissive attitude would have likely made most people not want to cooperate.

I am thinking of sending the recording to both the train operator and BTP to express my concerns with what I witnessed, Manly:

1. The instant refusal to believe that this child could be homeless and the lack of support.
2. The racial profiling of a young black female
3. The aggressive attitude that was used throughout the situation.

I would also like to try and get the child checked up on, however, this is likely going to be difficult as I don’t know any details apart from what she told me and where she got off (which I won’t lie, was a bit further than a ‘couple of stops’) as I am worried that she hasn’t got any support. I am also a bit worried that she’s moving in with a bf as well.

TLDR: a young black girl who claimed she was homeless was aggressively Interrogated by a police officer and ticket inspector. They doubted her claims because she was wearing branded clothing. The girl was left viably shaken as a result.

What would you do?
YABU- Don’t report
YANBU- report

Hey op, I know a Nigerian prince who's trying to move millions out of the country. Something tells me you'd be interested.

You just have to laugh. Never in decades of living in London or even outside have I ever seen strangers intercede on behalf of someone who hadn’t paid. Not once.

If two people felt the need to bestir themselves and intervene with murmurs of agreement from others, then the behaviour of the ticketing officer and BTP was disproportionate. Most of the time racism is not slurs.

Nothing you've said about their approach appeared to be of a racist nature.
It seems you are the only one concerned about her skin colour.
They will ask anyone for the ticket and if she really did need help, she could have given them her name and information.
How the hell do you expect them to refer her to SS when she is not giving information?
Unfortunately, rail fare dodgers are an every day occurrence. And even people who do it everyday can appear 'shaken'.

I'm more surprised that BTP showed up. They're known as "Be There Presently" for a reason

This. Does it only work on trains? Can I go to the airport and find a flight to Maui? 'A ticket?! Ahem! Safeguarding 101! You can't ask me for a ticket! Take me to Maui and provide me with accommodation! I'm saying I'm 16!'

Why is her colour relevant? It doesn’t sound like any of this is about race. It’s about the fact she hasn’t got a ticket. She shouldn’t have got on a train without one. It isn’t the job of the ticket inspector to find homes for homeless people! I think she was just trying to avoid paying.

I just hope that the people saying the girl MUST be a fare dodger never needs a stranger to vouch for their child. It's hardly beyond the realms of possibility that a child ran away from home and boarded a train with no money. That's fare dodging. Is it right? No. Should we, as adults, help them? Of course!

Oh and fuck all this "she's 16, she can change her name and get married etc etc" - she's still technically a child and should be safeguarded as such. Do you think in year 11 at school, once they have their 16th birthday, teachers just say "nah we don't need to help you anymore" ??

Whats teachers role of responsibility to children in their care to do with someone fare dodging?

I've met loads of rail staff in my years commuting. They deal with vulnerable people all the time - there is a suicide every week on the railway and an awful lot more who don't go through with it. They have runaways and exploited children.

They'd be fucking horrified that people think that it's none of their business.

Looking out for vulnerable people is absolutely part of their job.

so nothing to arrest her for
Failing to provide a ticket, payment, and a name & address is grounds for an arrest.

Oh please, I've literally witnessed a group of white teens have a punch-up in the middle of the aisle. On other occasions, the same kids were smoking/vaping, having water fights while spaying other commuters, paying with sparklers and running around with a fire extinguisher. Yet when I tried to report all these to the ticket inspector they told me to ‘just move carriage’. Funny that the white middle-class appearing kids get away with their repeated nuisance, yet a young black girl who claims to be homeless, gets police searching her stuff for not having a ticket.
What exactly is the guard supposed to do if confronted by a gang of teenagers (of any colour) running riot? They're not trained in the use of reasonable force, they do not wear any kind of body armour, they do not carry tasers or PAVA sprays, they are on their own with no back-up if they get stabbed/knocked out. They are expected to keep themselves safe and call the police (who might turn up eventually but BTP often have just one or two officers covering an entire county so you're reliant on them being in the right place at the right time).

Plus, I am pretty sure it's not in a ticket inspector's job description to judge why a 16-year-old hasn't got a bank account and to judge if someone is homeless based on the clothes the person is wearing.
It certainly is not. So why you are blaming the inspector? It's not their job to judge whether the sob story might be genuine, their job is to examine tickets and to take details from passengers who fail to produce. That's all, they're not a branch of social services. My response to "I'm homeless" would be "And? Does this look like a charity?"

I was on a local train last week, I think they've been short staffed or something because for the last couple of months no one seemed to be checking tickets, well last week they checked and in the carriage I was in two people didn't have tickets. They weren't together and both paid up, I think they
ticket guy said it was a penalty fare so they must have paid more than a standard ticket.

My husband is a retired police officer and he arrested a woman for shoplifting. He felt sorry for her kids as they didn't seem to have much. Every year for the next few years he used to drop a bag of presents for her kids on her doorstep on Christmas Eve, ring the bell and leave. I wonder if she ever worked out who was doing it.

If a child is running away then the absolute worst thing you can do is to let them carry on (whether that's staff letting them travel or a stranger paying for them). If a child might be a runaway the police should be called to retrive them. This happens a lot (often the same kid every single night), particularly with kids in care.

I can only imagine what the OP would be saying if the officer had arrested her, say she resisted and he restrained her. She'd have had a great recording then and she could moan about police brutality. You can't win in that situation.

All could have been avoided if she had given them her name and said she was staying at her boyfriends and given his address. No drama needed.

I completely agree. This way the chancers/fibbers can receive the appropriate sanction and those generally in need can get the support they need (and yes a sanction if necessary).

It's pretty obvious what I meant.

@DdraigGoch

"If a child is running away then the absolute worst thing you can do is to let them carry on (whether that's staff letting them travel or a stranger paying for them). If a child might be a runaway the police should be called to retrive them. This happens a lot (often the same kid every single night), particularly with kids in care."

But the ticket inspector wasn't interested in helping her. Neither was the police. That's my point - the OP said that they were treating her harshly instead of offering her support.

So anybody without a ticket during that check and other checks can just say they are homeless and expect support instead of the normal course of action for not having a ticket which is plastered all over stations and trains.

She was defrauding the train company! You are very naive!

She said she was living with her boyfriend. Thomelessness claptrap was to avoid giving an address!!

She had no ticket! I bet the guard hears this 1000 times. Yabu.

As she was over 16 the only thing the officer could have done is arrest her under RoRA. How would the OP have reacted then?

Indeed.

As I have said up thread, a white male behaving like this would almost certainly been given the choice of paying a penalty fare, ejected from the train and if they continued to refuse to give details, arrested.

She wouldn't give her name, she wouldn't give her address, do you imagine she would have cheerfully said, "OK" and gone with the officer at the next station? She'd have kicked up a fuss, people like you would have joined in and you'd have had something great to film wouldn't you. There is every reason to believe if he'd tried to arrest her she would have refused to move, if he'd laid hands on her he'd be accused of assault. She should have cooperated, given her name, given the address she was going to be staying at. She created this situation and you joined in and supported her behaviour.