Would you complain about this? (Police behaviour towards a black and potentially vulnerable 16-year-old girl)

[Readytoplay]

TLDR at the end of the post, as this is long but I feel I have to explain the whole situation

Yesterday afternoon I was on a train, departing from a London Terminal. Just after we started moving, a ticket inspection began. The girl (who was black) in front of me didn’t have a ticket. The ticket inspector (White 40s male) was abrupt; and in my opinion rude; with the young lady who claimed she was 16 and homeless. He asked her if she could pay with a debit card, but she told him that she didn’t have one. He then asked her age and she answered 16. He then scoffed “What, you're 16 and don’t have a bank card”. (For what it’s worth I personally didn’t have a bank account until I was 17- and this was only last decade).

He then asked her where she was going. The girl responded with vague answers, such as: “a few stops” or “not far”. He then asked how she got on the train without a ticket and through the barriers. She told him that she ‘just did’. He then asked for a name and address. The first she refused to give and she repeated that she was homeless for the latter, the inspector answered ‘No you're not’, Before asking for some ID. He then left her for a moment after she claimed she didn’t have any, before coming back with an officer from BTP (also a white 40s male).

Now, I always record any encounter I have with the police directly OR if an encounter is happening in my proximity (this was literally the seat in front) so I started filming but with the camera face down so only sound would be recorded. the police officer showed his badge and began to ask for the same information as the ticket inspector. After she repeated what she had already said, he then asked for some ID, before asking what was in her bag and that he was going to search it.

I was about to intervene at this point as I was getting increasingly uncomfortable with the tone and attitude these adult men were having with this young and likely vulnerable lady. Clearly, someone else felt the same and questioned the way the situation was being approached. I then also voiced my concerns and admitted that I was recording this. The other passenger started to tell the men that they thought how they were behaving was disgusting. I commented that if a 16-year-old minor was claiming to be homeless that shouldn’t they be offering them support? They said they would if they had some identification. I tried to explain that she likely doesn’t have anything due to her circumstances and then the part that really annoyed me: “as if she is homeless, dressed in all those brands”. I.E. doubting her circumstances because was wearing a Nike sweatshirt. WTF.

It ended with the other passenger ranting at the cop, before both the guard and cop got off at the next station. And that was that. They didn’t find any ID on the girl, and all that was in her bag were clothes and other personal essentials.

The girl was left visibly shaken and upset. I tried to see if she was alright. She explained to me that she was staying with her BF. I told her of some organisations to contact if she needed any support (Shelter/ Centerpoint). Before she got off I offered to give her a fiver (normally I wouldn’t give money to strangers, but would have in this case) but she declined.

Now, I have no idea if this girl was or wasn’t homeless. But am I wrong in thinking that the behaviour of the cop/train guard was completely inappropriate? There is very little of me who feels this wasn’t racially motivated. The fact that they searched her bag and the fact that both had an abrupt and aggressive attitude toward her really felt like profiling to me. Yes, the girl could have been more cooperative with some of the questions, but the intense questioning, mixed with the dismissive attitude would have likely made most people not want to cooperate.

I am thinking of sending the recording to both the train operator and BTP to express my concerns with what I witnessed, Manly:

1. The instant refusal to believe that this child could be homeless and the lack of support.
2. The racial profiling of a young black female
3. The aggressive attitude that was used throughout the situation.

I would also like to try and get the child checked up on, however, this is likely going to be difficult as I don’t know any details apart from what she told me and where she got off (which I won’t lie, was a bit further than a ‘couple of stops’) as I am worried that she hasn’t got any support. I am also a bit worried that she’s moving in with a bf as well.

TLDR: a young black girl who claimed she was homeless was aggressively Interrogated by a police officer and ticket inspector. They doubted her claims because she was wearing branded clothing. The girl was left viably shaken as a result.

What would you do?
YABU- Don’t report
YANBU- report

This. All these social justice warriors and their phone cameras — but ask them to pay for a homeless person's train ticket and they go strangely silent. Why didn't you jump in with your bank card, OP, and sort this poor young woman out?

I'm struggling to understand why you thought there was racial profiling?
If they didn't check anyone else's tickets and zoomed in on the black passengers that would be racial profiling. But you have said that they were checking everyone's tickets.

Or that you think they would have let a white kid off - which you cannot prove unless you saw them let a white kid off.

The inspectors attitude may have been shitty and sarcastic, but you'd be hard pressed to say it was racist.

There are enough real problems in society without inventing them, and crying racism whenever a non-white person gets into legal trouble just creates a 'cry wolf' situation which undermines the real issues.

I'm fairly certain they see so much of this behaviour that it gets irritating, which probably explains their attitudes more than anything - but then, I'm a 40-something white woman living in an affluent area who has never experienced racial profling personally.

But putting all of that aside for a moment, I absolutely would report the BTP officer due to his failure to report possible safeguarding issues. Wasn't this the problem with the various grooming gangs? Police and social services failures to intervene, because young vulnerable girls were just completely written off as hopeless causes who most likely deserved what they got and knew what they were doing. This girl stated she was 'moving in with her boyfriend'. She stated she had no money and was homeless. She was travelling some distance to be with this 'boyfriend'. This 'boyfriend' could in fact be a 35 year old pimp. That's more than enough red flags for safeguarding concerns and the BTP officer has a duty of care to that girl.

Normal, happy, settled 16 year old girls don't just climb aboard a train without a ticket, without money, to travel a number of miles to move in with their boyfriend of undetermined age. She's still a minor and her vulnerability should have been clear to a police officer.

Because they didn't want the problem to escalate. Sometimes police/ticket inspectors don't have the resources to deal with extra issues that may arise and it's easier just to let it go.

How do you know she was actually 16? She had no ID. She could be lying about her age.
Fun fact - people lie to the police all the time.

Just trying to understand how a white man, 40s, same story, would have been treated any differently?

Bunked on train
No ticket
Vague with inspector when asked
No means to pay

I'm struggling to see the age, sex and race reference.

I am a black woman.

So just because someone doesn't want to pay for something, you think they should get it for free.

Wow OP, you are so naive. Top tip OP, check the fingernails, guessing this "homeless" and "helpless" "child" had a manicure and clean clothes.

Why do you think every interaction between a black person and an the police is racially motivated?

How about a rude, entitled teenager fancied a free ride on a train and knew if challenged that some deluded woman would come to her "rescue" from the bad men.

How about you upload the audio on here for us to listen to. That way we have more context.

No one here is saying racism doesn’t exist. Of course it does.

The situation here is that the person is question was also deliberately fare evading and should have been pulled up on it regardless of skin colour.

I once forgot to get a ticket stamped on a train in France and got pulled up on it. But I gave my name and address for the fine because I’m a genuine person. This girl’s story doesn’t add up, she said she was moving in with her boyfriend, so she could have given that address. No reason not to give her name.

She could have also been lying about her age. I used to lie about my age to charity workers in the street and say I was 16 so they’d leave me alone.

I don’t think anybody suggesting that it was acceptable for her not to pay her fare but in my experience Londoners don’t usually have sympathy for people who get themselves into this position. If multiple people intervened, their behaviour must’ve been shocking.

I would also have been concerned about her age and would have assumed she lied and could be younger than 16. The BTP should have had a card with contact details for organisations that could provide assistance. I’d be wary of any black, mixed race or female child being removed from the train for safeguarding so I don’t think the police could’ve done that.

Oh cool. I’ll let all the teenagers I know know that they don’t need to bother with train tickets and can just say they’re homeless.

I would expect to be given short shrift if I was on a train without a ticket, having broken the law. What else should this girl have been allowed to do? Shoplift? Burgle houses? Mug people on the street?

Being vulnerable doesn’t mean you get special treatment in breaking the rules. She should have approached the right services to get support BEFORE getting on the train. Or even asked someone to buy a ticket for her.

Isn’t 16 an adult, technically? If so, not their job really…if she was a child, yes.

YABU re. The ticket. On my early morning train, when I commute in, if you don’t have a ticket and can’t buy one they chuck you off at the next stop. It’s great entertainment. Ditto for the train after etc.

It’s very sad if she can’t afford it. But lots of people struggle financially. They’re not entitled to travel on public transport for free.

Sorry OP - but from what you said, there is no evidence of racism here. The Inspector and the the BTP officer were just doing their job from the sounds of it. They will see this all the time. I have witnessed fare dodgers myself more than once and the questioning is normal, I would have thought. Of course the questioning will be tough.

She was quite lucky, IMO that they let her stay on the train. I have seen others made to get off the train at the next stop. Let's face it she lied to them anyway, - she did have an address she could have given them (her boyfriend's), if you believe her and if he actually existed, and she travelled much further than she told them. She also made the effort to get through the ticket barriers 'illegally' which won't have been easy

Exactly this.

It wasn’t ‘profiling’. I think you’re looking too hard to make this an instance of racism OP.

Rather than recording the situation and thinking of intervening you could have stopped the situation by paying for her ticket at the start. If you were willing to give her £5 then you could afford it.

I’m not surprised the ticket inspector summoned BTP, a bus driver local to me was stabbed to death last month by a 15 year old.

It's no wonder racism is rife when people bring up the colour of people's skin when it is totally irrelevant in this case.

It is a 16 year old teenager travelling without a ticket and the two ticket people were doing their job. The teenager was being evasive refusing to give any details and she was wrong to do this. If she had just given her name and where she was going, then there would have been no issue whatsoever, a fine would have been sent to the address and the ticket person would have had no need to even get anyone else..

Lots of kids try and avoid paying for tickets, and give the ticket people who are just doing their job lots of sh*t. It can't be a fun job!

Not only in this scenario was the teenager in the wrong, but grown adults then started ganging up on the ticket person too.

@Readytoplay you should be ashamed of your behaviour.

Oh let’s just all get on the train , no ticket, give smart smug answers when questioned, just basically give the finger to all in authority. Let’s just rip off the system and rip off all other passengers because we can . You always record any encounter you have with the police directly or in close proximity to you.? So how many police encounters have you personally had ? I think you have it in for them . At no time was that ever racist. It was them doing their job and probably a young woman (not child) scamming the system .

at 16 this is no longer the case.

fare dodger with usual script

If you and the other passengers thought they overstepped the mark then they most probably have.
I’d trust my gut instinct on that one.

Why would their leaving without pursuing be a reason to report them?
That they eventually left her alone doesn’t change the fact that she didn’t have a ticket on her, so it’s not like they were targeting her for no reason.

Yabu and very naive.

There was no racism or racial profiling ( with the possible exception of your own)

They are perfectly entitled to challenge non payers.

No she was taking a free ride.
How do you know she was telling the truth anyway?
If you were so concerned you should have bought her a ticket.
Fare dodging is illegal. Why racist? What if it was a white girl in the same position?

Christ so many people are naïve as fuck. Yes OP you should report IMO. Even if she was a chancer, not 16 or homeless, that's no way to handle a lone young woman claiming to be homeless and vulnerable.
So much faux naivety, "colour is irrelevant" - it's never irrelevant.

Fare dogder, saying a minor when not and having a laugh at all you idiots paying your fares when she travels for free. You are very naive. She will be doing the same at 30.