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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Would you complain about this? (Police behaviour towards a black and potentially vulnerable 16-year-old girl)

259 replies

Readytoplay · 14/03/2024 01:18

TLDR at the end of the post, as this is long but I feel I have to explain the whole situation

Yesterday afternoon I was on a train, departing from a London Terminal. Just after we started moving, a ticket inspection began. The girl (who was black) in front of me didn’t have a ticket. The ticket inspector (White 40s male) was abrupt; and in my opinion rude; with the young lady who claimed she was 16 and homeless. He asked her if she could pay with a debit card, but she told him that she didn’t have one. He then asked her age and she answered 16. He then scoffed “What, you're 16 and don’t have a bank card”. (For what it’s worth I personally didn’t have a bank account until I was 17- and this was only last decade).

He then asked her where she was going. The girl responded with vague answers, such as: “a few stops” or “not far”. He then asked how she got on the train without a ticket and through the barriers. She told him that she ‘just did’. He then asked for a name and address. The first she refused to give and she repeated that she was homeless for the latter, the inspector answered ‘No you're not’, Before asking for some ID. He then left her for a moment after she claimed she didn’t have any, before coming back with an officer from BTP (also a white 40s male).

Now, I always record any encounter I have with the police directly OR if an encounter is happening in my proximity (this was literally the seat in front) so I started filming but with the camera face down so only sound would be recorded. the police officer showed his badge and began to ask for the same information as the ticket inspector. After she repeated what she had already said, he then asked for some ID, before asking what was in her bag and that he was going to search it.

I was about to intervene at this point as I was getting increasingly uncomfortable with the tone and attitude these adult men were having with this young and likely vulnerable lady. Clearly, someone else felt the same and questioned the way the situation was being approached. I then also voiced my concerns and admitted that I was recording this. The other passenger started to tell the men that they thought how they were behaving was disgusting. I commented that if a 16-year-old minor was claiming to be homeless that shouldn’t they be offering them support? They said they would if they had some identification. I tried to explain that she likely doesn’t have anything due to her circumstances and then the part that really annoyed me: “as if she is homeless, dressed in all those brands”. I.E. doubting her circumstances because was wearing a Nike sweatshirt. WTF.

It ended with the other passenger ranting at the cop, before both the guard and cop got off at the next station. And that was that. They didn’t find any ID on the girl, and all that was in her bag were clothes and other personal essentials.

The girl was left visibly shaken and upset. I tried to see if she was alright. She explained to me that she was staying with her BF. I told her of some organisations to contact if she needed any support (Shelter/ Centerpoint). Before she got off I offered to give her a fiver (normally I wouldn’t give money to strangers, but would have in this case) but she declined.

Now, I have no idea if this girl was or wasn’t homeless. But am I wrong in thinking that the behaviour of the cop/train guard was completely inappropriate? There is very little of me who feels this wasn’t racially motivated. The fact that they searched her bag and the fact that both had an abrupt and aggressive attitude toward her really felt like profiling to me. Yes, the girl could have been more cooperative with some of the questions, but the intense questioning, mixed with the dismissive attitude would have likely made most people not want to cooperate.

I am thinking of sending the recording to both the train operator and BTP to express my concerns with what I witnessed, Manly:

  1. The instant refusal to believe that this child could be homeless and the lack of support.
  2. The racial profiling of a young black female
  3. The aggressive attitude that was used throughout the situation.

I would also like to try and get the child checked up on, however, this is likely going to be difficult as I don’t know any details apart from what she told me and where she got off (which I won’t lie, was a bit further than a ‘couple of stops’) as I am worried that she hasn’t got any support. I am also a bit worried that she’s moving in with a bf as well.

TLDR: a young black girl who claimed she was homeless was aggressively Interrogated by a police officer and ticket inspector. They doubted her claims because she was wearing branded clothing. The girl was left viably shaken as a result.

What would you do?
YABU- Don’t report
YANBU- report

OP posts:
BunniesRUs · 14/03/2024 03:20

Colour not relevant. 16 is adult??
I'd try and forget about it.

marcopront · 14/03/2024 03:56

@Readytoplay

Sorry if it's unclear but she said she was moving in with her BF. (hence the bag of clothing). So wasn't already saying there.

If she was homeless then she would have her bag of clothes whatever. Where do you think homeless people leave their clothes on a day to day basis?

If she was moving in with her boyfriend however then she wasn't homeless.

lollipoprainbow · 14/03/2024 04:03

Mind your own business

moonfacer · 14/03/2024 04:04

Absolutely report them, OP. It does sound like they made judgements based on her sex and race.

Josette77 · 14/03/2024 04:05

I would report.

And if she's carrying her clothes with her she clearly seems to be homeless.

Also those saying her colour doesn't matter? It would be so nice if that were true.

Picking on her for having a Nike sweatshirt?

White people are not treated the same as black people by police. We all know this right?

WalkingaroundJardine · 14/03/2024 04:06

marcopront · 14/03/2024 03:56

@Readytoplay

Sorry if it's unclear but she said she was moving in with her BF. (hence the bag of clothing). So wasn't already saying there.

If she was homeless then she would have her bag of clothes whatever. Where do you think homeless people leave their clothes on a day to day basis?

If she was moving in with her boyfriend however then she wasn't homeless.

Many homeless people don’t live on the street though. A huge number couch surf on the goodwill of friends and relatives. A 16 year old moving in with a boyfriend (most likely a lot older if he has his own place?) is not the same as 20 somethings plus who have been dating awhile and then decided to move in.

I think there is a strong probability of social wellbeing issues. Where I live, the police would still consider her a minor and while they might not force her to leave the boyfriend , they would do a welfare check if called upon to do so.

moonfacer · 14/03/2024 04:07

carerneedshelp · 14/03/2024 02:57

Report it. You felt uneasy with the way they were treating her as did other passengers who stepped in. That alone is enough for me.

Doesn't matter what the girl did whether she was lying or not. It's completely irrelevant. She should be treated reasonably regardless.

I agree. For multiple bystanders to get involved then the BTP must have been very aggressive.

Normally bystanders don’t get involved.

OP, well done for not being the usual gormless sheep who watches these abuses of power with their mouths drooling.

moonfacer · 14/03/2024 04:08

WalkingaroundJardine · 14/03/2024 04:06

Many homeless people don’t live on the street though. A huge number couch surf on the goodwill of friends and relatives. A 16 year old moving in with a boyfriend (most likely a lot older if he has his own place?) is not the same as 20 somethings plus who have been dating awhile and then decided to move in.

I think there is a strong probability of social wellbeing issues. Where I live, the police would still consider her a minor and while they might not force her to leave the boyfriend , they would do a welfare check if called upon to do so.

Exactly. There is a real ignorance about homelessness on this thread.

moonfacer · 14/03/2024 04:08

lollipoprainbow · 14/03/2024 04:03

Mind your own business

You mind your own.

YouDidntEvenAskIfSheWasThereMoriarty · 14/03/2024 04:32

moonfacer · 14/03/2024 04:08

Exactly. There is a real ignorance about homelessness on this thread.

Edited

Yes, I agree.

Being 16 and living with friends or a boyfriend is being homeless. A boyfriend's house is not a home.

Tilkyghg6366 · 14/03/2024 04:42

Just out of interest how are they supposed to handle teen fare dodging which is at high levels in our area? Youngsters will say they are homeless so they can’t be traced. Trotting out your address when fare evasion is a fine incurring offence isn’t necessarily going to be something those caught will do willingly.

Starseeking · 14/03/2024 04:48

You did a good thing stepping in for a vulnerable child OP, thank you.

But for the fortune of fate, that could have been me (or any of us for that matter).

It's not ok for the officials to behave in that manner (would they have had the same approach to a 6'4" well-built white male 16 year old), and I would report it.

Mumof2teens79 · 14/03/2024 04:57

She had no ticket and they deal with people who persistently dodge fairs day in day out.
It wasn't racially motivated
It was there job.

The fact you record every interaction with the police (how many does an average person have?) Suggests you are biased.

Guavafish1 · 14/03/2024 05:02

I would report the aggressive behaviour and racial profiling. Especially if you were not the only person who voiced their concern. To me that's when it becomes problematic.

However, they 16 year old should have had a ticket or a 16 year old pass. I suspect she is older than she claims.

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 14/03/2024 05:02

Readytoplay · 14/03/2024 01:55

It's not that she was challenged for not having a ticket. But more the attitude of both the inspector and the policeman and (the main one for me), refusing to believe her situation. Safeguarding 101: you always believe a person's claims until if and when you have evidence to suggest otherwise.

So if she'd then said 'that woman's been following and recording me on her phone and taken my purse' you'd of course have been happy with the police arresting you on the train?

Ialwaystry · 14/03/2024 05:03

I'm all for calling out the police when appropriate.
Imo they did their job.
She was lucky she didn't get thrown off the train too.
Lots of people lie to the police
It's hot racist. She committed an offence
She aas evasive and if she had been cooperative they may have helped her

Guavafish1 · 14/03/2024 05:09

Disagree with those that said its not your business or they were only doing their job.

The fact you felt uncomfortable enough to record and others came to intervene shows its abnormal.

Its seen many people being stopped without having a ticket but never did I feel I needed to intervene or record. Most of the time, they are stopped and escorted of the train.

Tilkyghg6366 · 14/03/2024 05:15

So they should have escorted her off the train?

It wasn’t profiling. It was a ticket inspection and everybody was being checked. She didn’t have a ticket and there are signs everywhere telling you what happens if you travel without a ticket.

user1477391263 · 14/03/2024 05:27

The girl responded with vague answers, such as: “a few stops” or “not far”. He then asked how she got on the train without a ticket and through the barriers. She told him that she ‘just did’. He then asked for a name and address. The first she refused to give and she repeated that she was homeless for the latter, the inspector answered ‘No you're not’,

Come on, OP, you were played. She gave vague non-answers, kept changing the story, wouldn't give an address even though she could have given them her boyfriend's address, said "a couple of stops" and then got off after quite a lot more than a couple of stops by your own admission. The whole thing screams "fare dodger."

Are you being serious when you say you record every encounter with the police that you witness?

WandaWonder · 14/03/2024 05:30

user1477391263 · 14/03/2024 05:27

The girl responded with vague answers, such as: “a few stops” or “not far”. He then asked how she got on the train without a ticket and through the barriers. She told him that she ‘just did’. He then asked for a name and address. The first she refused to give and she repeated that she was homeless for the latter, the inspector answered ‘No you're not’,

Come on, OP, you were played. She gave vague non-answers, kept changing the story, wouldn't give an address even though she could have given them her boyfriend's address, said "a couple of stops" and then got off after quite a lot more than a couple of stops by your own admission. The whole thing screams "fare dodger."

Are you being serious when you say you record every encounter with the police that you witness?

Seems odd to record it then go all 'well I not sure if I should report it I need MN to tell me too'

lemonmeringueno3 · 14/03/2024 05:38

They hear that same story a thousand times a day. They might even have met her before. Fare dodgers know exactly what to say to get away with it and get other passengers on side. I defy anyone not to get frustrated, having to deal with the same weak excuses from people who think they shouldn't have to pay because other people's fares are increasing to cover the cost. To me, it's theft and unfair on the honest people who paid. I don't care if they're abrupt. If you can't pay for a ticket, don't get on a train.

lemonmeringueno3 · 14/03/2024 05:41

It's a script.

Can you pay for your ticket now?
I have no cash, cards, Apple Pay.

Can we contact you afterwards to pay?
I am uncontactsble as homeless.

Can you get off the train?
I am a vulnerable child.

Didn't you notice the barriers?
No I just wandered on the train by mistake, barely realising that I was required to pay.

Birmingbacon · 14/03/2024 05:43

She was a chancer trying for a free ride

lemonmeringueno3 · 14/03/2024 05:45

What resolution would have been acceptable to you op? Polite questioning that ultimately ended with the free journey she wanted I assume. Maybe shoplifters should be given the same treatment.

DB used to get on the tram in our city without paying. But if caught he considered it quite fair and wouldn't have grumbled about the unfairness or abrupt behaviour.

Beleop · 14/03/2024 05:48

She was a bullshitter trying to get (and got) a free ride, won’t give name, won’t give address, claiming to be under 18 and vague answers, it’s pretty much the standard young person faredodging script.

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