Would you complain about this? (Police behaviour towards a black and potentially vulnerable 16-year-old girl)

[Readytoplay]

TLDR at the end of the post, as this is long but I feel I have to explain the whole situation

Yesterday afternoon I was on a train, departing from a London Terminal. Just after we started moving, a ticket inspection began. The girl (who was black) in front of me didn’t have a ticket. The ticket inspector (White 40s male) was abrupt; and in my opinion rude; with the young lady who claimed she was 16 and homeless. He asked her if she could pay with a debit card, but she told him that she didn’t have one. He then asked her age and she answered 16. He then scoffed “What, you're 16 and don’t have a bank card”. (For what it’s worth I personally didn’t have a bank account until I was 17- and this was only last decade).

He then asked her where she was going. The girl responded with vague answers, such as: “a few stops” or “not far”. He then asked how she got on the train without a ticket and through the barriers. She told him that she ‘just did’. He then asked for a name and address. The first she refused to give and she repeated that she was homeless for the latter, the inspector answered ‘No you're not’, Before asking for some ID. He then left her for a moment after she claimed she didn’t have any, before coming back with an officer from BTP (also a white 40s male).

Now, I always record any encounter I have with the police directly OR if an encounter is happening in my proximity (this was literally the seat in front) so I started filming but with the camera face down so only sound would be recorded. the police officer showed his badge and began to ask for the same information as the ticket inspector. After she repeated what she had already said, he then asked for some ID, before asking what was in her bag and that he was going to search it.

I was about to intervene at this point as I was getting increasingly uncomfortable with the tone and attitude these adult men were having with this young and likely vulnerable lady. Clearly, someone else felt the same and questioned the way the situation was being approached. I then also voiced my concerns and admitted that I was recording this. The other passenger started to tell the men that they thought how they were behaving was disgusting. I commented that if a 16-year-old minor was claiming to be homeless that shouldn’t they be offering them support? They said they would if they had some identification. I tried to explain that she likely doesn’t have anything due to her circumstances and then the part that really annoyed me: “as if she is homeless, dressed in all those brands”. I.E. doubting her circumstances because was wearing a Nike sweatshirt. WTF.

It ended with the other passenger ranting at the cop, before both the guard and cop got off at the next station. And that was that. They didn’t find any ID on the girl, and all that was in her bag were clothes and other personal essentials.

The girl was left visibly shaken and upset. I tried to see if she was alright. She explained to me that she was staying with her BF. I told her of some organisations to contact if she needed any support (Shelter/ Centerpoint). Before she got off I offered to give her a fiver (normally I wouldn’t give money to strangers, but would have in this case) but she declined.

Now, I have no idea if this girl was or wasn’t homeless. But am I wrong in thinking that the behaviour of the cop/train guard was completely inappropriate? There is very little of me who feels this wasn’t racially motivated. The fact that they searched her bag and the fact that both had an abrupt and aggressive attitude toward her really felt like profiling to me. Yes, the girl could have been more cooperative with some of the questions, but the intense questioning, mixed with the dismissive attitude would have likely made most people not want to cooperate.

I am thinking of sending the recording to both the train operator and BTP to express my concerns with what I witnessed, Manly:

1. The instant refusal to believe that this child could be homeless and the lack of support.
2. The racial profiling of a young black female
3. The aggressive attitude that was used throughout the situation.

I would also like to try and get the child checked up on, however, this is likely going to be difficult as I don’t know any details apart from what she told me and where she got off (which I won’t lie, was a bit further than a ‘couple of stops’) as I am worried that she hasn’t got any support. I am also a bit worried that she’s moving in with a bf as well.

TLDR: a young black girl who claimed she was homeless was aggressively Interrogated by a police officer and ticket inspector. They doubted her claims because she was wearing branded clothing. The girl was left viably shaken as a result.

What would you do?
YABU- Don’t report
YANBU- report

There is no expectation of privacy in a public place, so yes, you can record people and you don't need their permission to post it online.

Yes but we should hardly be pushing for videos of potentially vulnerable teenagers to be published without their consent, even if they technically could. Morally repugnant.

If she used an Oyster Card to access the barriers then she’d have a ticket unless it was out of credit and she knew this.
Or she tailgated someone

Either was she was travelling without and she knew it .

I’ve had people put an empty plastic cover on the reader and cram themselves through the barrier behind me .And witnessed groups of school pupils in uniform crash their way through barriers. The station staff tend to ignore them though

Did you deliberately ignore the bit in my comment about why it's racist?

Do you know whether this particular inspector lets off white kids or is that supposition on your part?

The two fare dodgers on my train last week were both white, one male, one female, one probably in their 20s the other probably late 40s or 50s. Both were clearly embarrassed, both immediately got cards out to pay, both were told they must get tickets before travel.

I don't think the big difference was race, I think the difference was the fare dodgers co-operated and paid up.

I have seen clear racism, one particular instance with some junior staff and the manager treated them very differently, I went over his head to report it and it was dealt with. I've also experienced it when I was with my husband, I'm white he isn't, so I see and acknowledge racism. This particular case does not appear to be racism but a 16 year old who was in the wrong and then refused to go through the process set out for the situation.

YABU. Their behaviour doesn't sound unacceptable and if she was on a train without a ticket, the inspector and the police had every right to question her. I can't see any evidence of racism in what you have posted. I imagine they would have done the same with anyone else without a ticket - regardless of age or skin colour

Nothing really relevant but my sister's husband was accused of being racist at work.

He's white. He practically brought his 3 little sisters up who are mixed race but really dark.
So you can't tell there mum is white.

His mums brother and sister are mixed again quite dark. So he has lots of mixed race cousins who now have their own kids. His sisters also have kids. In fact out around 27 family members only he and his mum are white but obviously by looking at him you wouldn't know.

He has to just ignore this when he's accused of being racist as he would look daft reeling off the story.

Obviously the inspector could be racist but nothing to suggest he was.

Having black or brown friends and family doesn't mean you can't be racist.

Absolutely true just like challenging a black person who hasn't paid their fare doesn't mean you are racist.

Doesn't mean you aren't racist either.

She was 16 so a young adult.

the only aspect I would be alarmed at is the bag search as there didn’t appear to be any basis for it. That sounds like overstepping the mark.

i also don’t particularly like the way that people so quickly record stuff like this and put it online to invite people to weigh in and pass judgement. It must be worrying for people trying to do their job having to deal often with all sorts of people and stresses, knowing meanwhile they could be put on social media and judged by thousands of strangers who weren’t there. Doesn’t seem very fair (not saying you were intending to do this)

What a daft statement. Talk about "guilty until proven innocent"

I prefer not to presume either way.

It's statistically likely based on my experience - and apparently by the posters' experience too

You've got statistics?

No of course it doesn't but this doesn't appear to be evidence of racism does it. The inspector and police officer might be as racist as hell but they don't appear to have demonstrated it when doing their jobs dealing with a fare dodger.

It's scary to me how many people are so desperate to argue that an encounter they did not witness can't possibly have been racist. As if racism can't possibly be in an issue in the railways...
If all was above board the report would go nowhere anyway. Why on earth should OP not report something that concerned her?

Most likely just another freeloader who spoils it for those genuinely in need.

So you think you know better than someone who actually works for the trainline, and you know better than the Police Officer who attended?

Really? Another armchair critic.

My DH is a Police Officer. You wouldn't believe the same shit that he has to deal with, day in and day out, and it is absolutely obvious who is homeless/not homeless, who is lying/not lying. What they don't need is a local Karen meddling and filming!

Hundreds of people try to scam their way on to trains every day - these men are probably at the end of their tether. Would you be happy for them to come to your work and tell you what you're doing wrong, even though they've never done your job?

Why are you making this about colour? That's pretty racist of you.

Maybe we should let more people travel without paying? Just don't moan when ticket prices double, eh?

You're right. The police can obviously be trusted to be completely unbiased and should be left to do whatever they feel like. Said no woman or minority ever.

Well maybe the OP could give us evidence that it was racist. Challenging someone who hasn't paid their fare is a perfectly reasonable and lawful thing to do. As I said earlier I was on a train nearly 2 weeks ago and 2 people were pulled up for not having tickets. They both immediately offered to pay, didn't argue, didn't make excuses. I think the way that encounter went was down to how the fare dodgers behaved. From what the OP has told us this fare dodger refused to give a name, refused to give an address and wasn't able to pay. I think the chances are that affected how the encounter went, don't you?

I've been subjected to enough racism to know it happens but the OP hasn't said anything that suggests this is racism. If she feels her recording proves it was then yes she should report it but to suggest it is racism based on what she has told us isn't reasonable.

No one is saying the police should never be challenged, what they are saying is that from what the OP has told us it doesn't sound like racism. She is the only one who can decide if her recording is going to prove it was racism or just waste police time.

But the fact that other people raised their concern too should be enough to conclude this encounter was unusual.

They shouldn't be doing the job if they're at the 'end of their tether' with the actual work.

They're actually on commission for all the tickets they sell so they shouldn't be too distressed with finding someone who doesn't have a ticket.