Would you complain about this? (Police behaviour towards a black and potentially vulnerable 16-year-old girl)

[Readytoplay]

TLDR at the end of the post, as this is long but I feel I have to explain the whole situation

Yesterday afternoon I was on a train, departing from a London Terminal. Just after we started moving, a ticket inspection began. The girl (who was black) in front of me didn’t have a ticket. The ticket inspector (White 40s male) was abrupt; and in my opinion rude; with the young lady who claimed she was 16 and homeless. He asked her if she could pay with a debit card, but she told him that she didn’t have one. He then asked her age and she answered 16. He then scoffed “What, you're 16 and don’t have a bank card”. (For what it’s worth I personally didn’t have a bank account until I was 17- and this was only last decade).

He then asked her where she was going. The girl responded with vague answers, such as: “a few stops” or “not far”. He then asked how she got on the train without a ticket and through the barriers. She told him that she ‘just did’. He then asked for a name and address. The first she refused to give and she repeated that she was homeless for the latter, the inspector answered ‘No you're not’, Before asking for some ID. He then left her for a moment after she claimed she didn’t have any, before coming back with an officer from BTP (also a white 40s male).

Now, I always record any encounter I have with the police directly OR if an encounter is happening in my proximity (this was literally the seat in front) so I started filming but with the camera face down so only sound would be recorded. the police officer showed his badge and began to ask for the same information as the ticket inspector. After she repeated what she had already said, he then asked for some ID, before asking what was in her bag and that he was going to search it.

I was about to intervene at this point as I was getting increasingly uncomfortable with the tone and attitude these adult men were having with this young and likely vulnerable lady. Clearly, someone else felt the same and questioned the way the situation was being approached. I then also voiced my concerns and admitted that I was recording this. The other passenger started to tell the men that they thought how they were behaving was disgusting. I commented that if a 16-year-old minor was claiming to be homeless that shouldn’t they be offering them support? They said they would if they had some identification. I tried to explain that she likely doesn’t have anything due to her circumstances and then the part that really annoyed me: “as if she is homeless, dressed in all those brands”. I.E. doubting her circumstances because was wearing a Nike sweatshirt. WTF.

It ended with the other passenger ranting at the cop, before both the guard and cop got off at the next station. And that was that. They didn’t find any ID on the girl, and all that was in her bag were clothes and other personal essentials.

The girl was left visibly shaken and upset. I tried to see if she was alright. She explained to me that she was staying with her BF. I told her of some organisations to contact if she needed any support (Shelter/ Centerpoint). Before she got off I offered to give her a fiver (normally I wouldn’t give money to strangers, but would have in this case) but she declined.

Now, I have no idea if this girl was or wasn’t homeless. But am I wrong in thinking that the behaviour of the cop/train guard was completely inappropriate? There is very little of me who feels this wasn’t racially motivated. The fact that they searched her bag and the fact that both had an abrupt and aggressive attitude toward her really felt like profiling to me. Yes, the girl could have been more cooperative with some of the questions, but the intense questioning, mixed with the dismissive attitude would have likely made most people not want to cooperate.

I am thinking of sending the recording to both the train operator and BTP to express my concerns with what I witnessed, Manly:

1. The instant refusal to believe that this child could be homeless and the lack of support.
2. The racial profiling of a young black female
3. The aggressive attitude that was used throughout the situation.

I would also like to try and get the child checked up on, however, this is likely going to be difficult as I don’t know any details apart from what she told me and where she got off (which I won’t lie, was a bit further than a ‘couple of stops’) as I am worried that she hasn’t got any support. I am also a bit worried that she’s moving in with a bf as well.

TLDR: a young black girl who claimed she was homeless was aggressively Interrogated by a police officer and ticket inspector. They doubted her claims because she was wearing branded clothing. The girl was left viably shaken as a result.

What would you do?
YABU- Don’t report
YANBU- report

The cynicism on this thread is so depressing.

Imagine - if every time a young person said 'homeless' as a reason for their fare dodge there would be immediate support for their situation?

'ok, come with me & let's see what's going on. Talk me through your situation' Suddenly the fibbers don't want to bother with that particular lie (homelessness) because it has consequences, agencies spring into action to help that vulnerable person.

Imagine all the actual vulnerable young women who would get help as a result? Sure there would be 16yos fibbing but equally there ARE vulnerable, homeless (and exploited!!) young women out there. We're taking about someone still at school showing a potential red flag, but it should be ignored cos 'bloody fare dodgers'.

OP, I voted YANBU with my whole chest!

Op you sound absolutely horrendous yourself recording all your interactions. Get a life.

Agree, but it's fine we can all pay through the nose to commute as long as we let people who fit our vague definition of vulnerable off when they want to steal. I get that young people on the whole have less ability to help themselves if their situation is dire such as homelessness/ poverty etc but the op has been completely and utterly fooled by her unconscious bias here. Young black female vs white adult male and posting on mumsnet for everyone to tell her what a hero she is when these issues are much wider than that.

This is my favourite response on here.

If a minor is travelling on trains with no ticket and can't or won't provide an address it is highly likely that they are either a runaway or are involved in county lines. Either way the police should detain them until a responsible adult can be found
The problem with that is it's legal to leave home at 16 (but SS can get involved if a young person is vulnerable) and there was NO evidence of country lines (I am well aware that's really why they wanted to search her bag), so nothing to arrest her for. However, part of me thinks it may have been in her best interests to arrest her for not paying the fine and that way she may have got support. But ultimately, the police are highly racist and I don't know how postive the outcome would have been.
well first of you have racially profiled her yourself, if you want to report then do so but your whole OP is racist.
Oh please, I've literally witnessed a group of white teens have a punch-up in the middle of the aisle. On other occasions, the same kids were smoking/vaping, having water fights while spaying other commuters, paying with sparklers and running around with a fire extinguisher. Yet when I tried to report all these to the ticket inspector they told me to ‘just move carriage’. Funny that the white middle-class appearing kids get away with their repeated nuisance, yet a young black girl who claims to be homeless, gets police searching her stuff for not having a ticket.
you dont need us to giver you permission to report nor a round of applause
No, I don't need your permission. But I wanted to see what other people felt about the situation. As for wanting ‘applause’: if I wanted to play the ‘white knight’ I would release the footage on social media, which I have absolutely no intention of doing as I don't want clout, I just want to keep vulnerable children safe (which is another reason I wouldn't want to share the recording)
I would assume you don't travel by public transport around London regularly?
I do actually, I go up to London at least once a week. Sometimes more. I also lived in Islington for 9 months so I am well aware of the vibe of the city, and yes, I have also witnessed all the sob stories (a lot are also clearly struggling with drugs). I still don't think this particular situation was handled appropriately.
The behaviour of the btp officer is terrible especially given the push for ending violence against women and girls (they have all been given training).
Both men, were very well built which is actually what the other passenger first commented on. They could have caused harm to her very easily, especially given that she was fairly petite. Thankfully, nothing ever got physical, but I am sure it could of: hence why I used my camera to record.
Imo it speaks volumes that they stopped their search once a member of the public intervened and you said you were recording. That to me suggests they knew they overstepped the rules of engagement.
They didn't stop then, they still searched the bag. but for some reason, they both had to get off at the next stop and when they did, nothing else happened. They didn't find anything in her bag, no ID and definitely no drugs. The police officer spent the rest of the time arguing with the other passenger who was telling the cop that society was being brainwashed with fear into complying with everything. I appreciated him voicing his concern about the situation, but I personally don't think this type of attitude helps society's relationship with the police
*You felt uneasy with the way they were treating her as did other passengers who stepped in. That alone is enough for me. *
That's what makes me feel that IANBU and also while only two of us spoke up, a few others were nodding and murmuring in agreement.
Doesn't matter what the girl did whether she was lying or not. It's completely irrelevant. She should be treated reasonably regardless.
Exactly, my main concern was their instant refusal of the girl's claims. it was HOW they handled the situation that worried me NOT WHY they handled the situation.
*it isn't easy to get past the ticket barriers without one
It is actually at this terminal (Stratford), especially if you come in through a TFL service. There is only a set of barriers via each entrance. But once you get through them you can access any train (both TFL and National). There are also tap-outs on the platforms. I personally believe she likely used an oyster card to enter the station.
they are just doing their job.
Again, it's a how not why issue for me. Plus, I am pretty sure it's not in a ticket inspector's job description to judge why a 16-year-old hasn't got a bank account and to judge if someone is homeless based on the clothes the person is wearing.
She wasn't homeless, she was staying with her boyfriend. Which if she was 16 should have been enough to make the police officer ask questions. Grooming, county lines, missing from home.
She was moving in with her BF, she wasn't currently staying with him at the time. I agree the police should have been asking her questions. I agree this situation is not ideal (which is why I would like to try and get SS to track her down). But the way they were going about it just felt wrong and demeaning. My main beef is more with the ticket inspector, than the officer, but telling her sternly that she legally has to give information, was likely going to make her feel uncomfortable.
*It doesn't sound awful to me but I wasn't there so I think it must be worse than your post has made it sound, given you weren't the only one who picked up on it. If it made you feel uneasy relief. *
This is it. I have witnessed a few police encounters; and sadly been involved in a couple myself as a witness; with suspects being both male and female, young and old and of various ethnicities. I have never felt uncomfortable with any other interaction I have witnessed. It's funny, because rereading my OP, part of me feels as if I am overreacting. but then the other part of me knows there is a reason why not just myself, but another person intervened at the exact same point. (I literally opened my mouth to question their approach when I heard the other passenger speak). And while I don't necessarily agree with all of his points, he was bang-on with how I felt when he first voiced his concerns. I also hate conflict, so there was something that I was definitely uncomfortable with.

You were there, OP. You know what happened best.

You cannot tell if someone is a homeless teenager just from looking at them. When I was homeless at 16, you definitely wouldn't have known it from looking at me. I had clothes from previous years. Not to mention that you can pick things up second hand for very cheap. Or you can be given clothes by friends - I had a lot of those. If she was a care leaver, she would have been on a clothing budget until recently. I don't know about now, but it used to be a fairly generous amount.

I also didn't spend a night on the street. I always - by the skin of my teeth sometimes - found a friend to stay with.

I didn't get out of it with help from any authorities either. In fact, they made my situation much worse than it needed to be. It was a friend of a friend who finally helped me get somewhere secure to live at 17.

So a young person saying they're homeless is not guaranteed to be a lie and it shouldn't be treated that way, regardless of whether they have ok clothes and look clean.

I don’t think that it sounds like she was lying because she wore a Nike t-shirt or whatever. I do think it sounds like she was lying because she was giving non-answers, changing her story, and also lied about how far she was going on the train.

None of us know if the ticket inspector or BTP officer were racist. To know that we'd have to see how they behave with a similar white person. They could be racist. They might not.

Chances are that the young girl was indeed a fare dodger. It's the most likely scenario. However, I think it's lovely that so many people are now aware of county lines specifically and vulnerability in general.

This is quite a tricky situation to deal with. If the girl didn't want to give name and address the police could do little more than signpost her. At 16 the threshold to detain her under police protection powers simply aren't there unless they know she is at risk of significant harm. They could try to safeguard her by arresting her for the fare dodging offence under the necessity of name and address not known, but this would likely be criticised on as a disproportionate response. Certainly if it was filmed and put on social media.

However, politeness costs nothing. I'm a former officer and as much as I've had to grit my teeth sometimes, I've always tried to remain polite and friendly to people.

@Readytoplay I have to say I'm a bit confused by some of your posts. In your OP you say this:

Now, I always record any encounter I have with the police directly OR if an encounter is happening in my proximity (this was literally the seat in front)

But then you in your last post you said:

This is it. I have witnessed a few police encounters; and sadly been involved in a couple myself as a witness; with suspects being both male and female, young and old and of various ethnicities. I have never felt uncomfortable with any other interaction I have witnessed.

Why do you record every interaction you, or anyone near you, has with the police when you have never previously seen anything that made you uncomfortable? I mean, you must spend a lot of time videoing the police, but why do you do it?

On the train yesterday the passenger sat next to me had bought a ticket online with a railcard but didn't have the railcard. The ticket inspector asked for ID and I thought this was to check he was under 25 but they took a photo and said a letter will be sent with a fine and how they could explain/appeal it. The passenger was black but I don't think this was racial profiling etc, the ticket inspector was polite but firm. Sounds like they get people without tickets/trying it on daily and they are really clamping down on it

Oh please, I've literally witnessed a group of white teens have a punch-up in the middle of the aisle. On other occasions, the same kids were smoking/vaping, having water fights while spaying other commuters, paying with sparklers and running around with a fire extinguisher. Yet when I tried to report all these to the ticket inspector they told me to ‘just move carriage’. Funny that the white middle-class appearing kids get away with their repeated nuisance, yet a young black girl who claims to be homeless, gets police searching her stuff for not having a ticket.

Not having a go because it's not acceptable either way, but how do you know it's about race and not about numbers/sex/level of conflict?

Hi OP. These threads rely on people posting in good faith, and therefore I don't want to suggest that this is fabricated. But how come you seem to end up having so many dealings with the police? I mean, I've spoken to them a few times, maybe seen them attending an incident a few times, but don't find myself dealing with them on such a frequent basis that I have a 'policy' on dealing with them such as filming etc. What is going on here? Are you unlucky? Do you sniff out trouble?

Now, I always record any encounter I have with the police directly OR if an encounter is happening in my proximity

how often is this happening to you?!

You sound insufferable and probably quite gullible

Interested to know how you think the police or anyone else can offer support if the girl refused details?

Funny how it's always their mother or their grandmother who is in hospital. Almost as if they think that it will attract more sympathy compared with claiming that their father is in hospital.

I’d report. But don’t expect support on here, there’s a very unpleasant undercurrent here whereby any prejudice, especially towards people of colour and disabled people, is minimised or flat-out denied. It’s pretty horrific.

The fact she's homeless isn't their problem.

Their problem is that she didn't have a ticket.

Why would they be concerned about anything else? They are not social workers.

They must see countless chancers and people who try it on every day, and engaging in polite chat just drags the matter out.

That asked for the facts. They may have been abrupt, but they didn't actually say anything about he race, did they?!

You dont think the police hear people telling lies to get off the hook ALL THE TIME?

If the inspectors and police let people off with every sob story they heard no one would bother buying a ticket.

Not really sure why you felt the need to bring any of their race into this. Maybe its your bias

Look, OP, nothing racial was actually said!

What do you want them to do? Not ever check black people's tickets?!?

So.... let's try and look at this objectively, recognising that only you were there.

1. The level of people without a/ correct ticket is significant in terms of the numbers of people who do it, in turn, that puts up your fare.
2. Not having a ticket is an offence, and it sounds like a revenue inspector, not just a routine train manager/ ticket checker. They are obliged to request personal details as an offence has been committed, and if this was a revenue protection officer, they have the same powers as the Police in these matters.
3. Personal details are required to send a fine, regardless of circumstances. This isn't a case of "go on then, never mind" situation.
4. Where the individual refused to provide personal details, it is common for the Police to be called, the main reason is to check who the person is, and to check for any previous offences of a similar nature, or in these cases often can be missing persons or are wanted - especially for young vulnerable people.
5. The BTP officer may have been assertive, however if the Police hold up a train, they can be fined by the train operator - so when someone is not cooperating, this delays travel for everyone - who then complain.
6. Without these details, no one can offer help - and if the person could be proven to be this age, they would be regarded as potentially a vulnerable person, and either referred to an agency or in many BTP cases, taken somewhere.
7. I would say... if you were that concerned, you could have offered to pay the individuals fare? You also go on to say the person did in fact go further than the "few stops".

At least one, if not both staff would have a body worn video, and recording - so that's not a problem to report, as that can be checked, as can the video footage that is on every carriage.

I would also say that the way in which people handle situations is subjective, what might be aggressive to you, might be less so to another.

What concerned me was your automatic assumption that somehow this was racial, and the fact that the two staff were male vs. a black female is in my view, irrelevant. BTP in fact, is a very caring Force that focusses on safety and well-being of vulnerable travellers, regardless of age or race.

I'm not doubting you, or your interpretation, however a BTP officer and rail staff are not here to give their side of the story, and who are heavily regulated and scrutinised. I would have preferred that you report it to both the rail operator and BTP for them to investigate, rather than possibly trying to paint a picture that was your interpretation.

What a load of nonsense.

You have made it a racial issue when there wasn't any.

They were just doing their job and dealing with a person who hadn't paid for their ticket.

You've chosen to call her vulnerable when she could just as easily be a persistent offender.

The outrage at such a non event which has been escalated in your mind to all sorts of crap is completely misplaced

Do you actually know whether this girl was vulnerable or not? Or do you prefer to assume everyone is lying?

Because I'd rather assume everyone was telling the truth, rather than fail to support someone who was in genuine need.

OP. unless you are prepared to upload the audio you recorded, then I call BS on this whole thread.

If you need instructions on how to link it, let me know, and I will talk you through it.

Honestly I think you’re being naive. Not sure what the girl’s colour has to do with it either.
About 6 months ago I witnessed similar on a train. Young man got on the train, had a ticket for one stop and no railcard to show.
He gave the poor. young ticket collector such a hard time. Man opposite me pulled out £100 cash to give to the young man to help him out. He refused to take the cash but I couldn’t believe the older man had swallowed his story. I’m guessing people try and get away with not paying the full fare more frequently than you think.
Why report someone who is trying to do their job? Doesn’t sound like they were being horrible to the girl to me.

You can’t make a recording of someone without their permission and share it with a load of random people surely?