They're better off dead... AIBU?

[CupcakeOdssey]

Not sure if I'm being funny here or what.

How you feel if this was said to you?

One of my close family members has cancer that has spread all over, they are on palliative care and taken it badly.
They had a heart attack and was resuscitated by hospital but now they've said they've signed a DNR as they're to weak to cope with that again.

I was telling one of my in laws about said family member and they said "why did they resuscitate them for? That was stupid they are better off dead!"

How would you take that? I'm quite shocked and a bit hurt by their comment.

There is something quite cruel about stopping someone from dying immediately just so they can have a prolonged death of cancer instead. I would think most people would prefer a quick death, for themselves and their loved ones. This is where your MIL is coming from.

My mum has just died, and this might be difficult for those earlier in the journey. If so, please skip here, it's not easy.

Sorry just watched my mum die slowly over four weeks in hospital. It was terrible, she wasn't in any pain, as meds were on a syringe driver. But so weak, and she very much wanted to survive and go home (stage 4 cancer and in denial to the end)

It was actually a lot better than my my father in law, also with cancer and desperate to go. They were adding fluids as fast as he could break down and leak them.

I'm going to write an advanced directive, as I don't want this future. Heart attack in these circumstances is a blessing as the alternative is worse

By all accounts resuscitation is a violent and painful procedure and no-one goes through it without quite serious after-effects. When it came to having to make a DNR decision for my mother it was relatively easy, because she'd made it very clear while she still had capacity that she just didn't want her life to be prolonged artificially.

I've looked into the end stages of a cancer that one of my family members has got, and I have to admit I agree with them.

Remember they used to call pneumonia "old people's friend".

A slow agonising death is not what most of us picture in our ideal life.

I think people are missing the point. Losing someone close to you to cancer is horrendous, it’s not about ‘oh well they signed a DNR so they must feel the same too’ - have we all lost our compassion?!

It’s an absolutely awful thing to say regardless of whether you think it or not. They should not have said it, it was incredibly blunt and unnecessary. Having lost my Dad under a year ago to cancer (that had also aggressively spread), I can understand how they want as much time with their family as possible before this awful disease takes it from them and coming to the decision of a DNR is heartbreaking. Yes when they are on end of life, of course it’s the ‘right’ thing to do but it does not make it any easier. In difficult times you don’t need others stating the obvious to you, just a nod of sympathy or a hug will do.

Unfortunately, we live in a world now where people think they are entitled to say aloud anything that comes into their head,
zero tact, zero compassion.

You have every right to feel sensitive, cancer is complex and so are the emotions that surround it. It’s such a hard time for you and I hope you have better support than what your in laws offer.

My grandmother came home to die so she could die in her cottage. My Dad also died of cancer in his own home. If there is a DNR I don't see why he can't just come home to die. You can often borrow hospital beds for this purpose and commodes etc. I think Macmillan advised in both cases and possibly provided some of the palliative care for my Dad. He ended up living months longer than expected.

You have my sympathy OP. I have similar tactless in-laws, who told me "it was for the best" that my DM died quickly after diagnosis. Before she was even pension age, before all her children had time to visit, before I had wrapped my head around the news.

It's just a lack of emotional intelligence, I keep telling myself.

I’d agree with the in-law and so does the family member.

in a similar situation I hope I would be able to drag myself to Dignitas.

Not the point of the thread..but are you saffa? The way you wrote and a few things made me wonder! They should not have said that no...but let's say u are saffa then u also know that they are very direct to the point of being crass...no harm intended. Hope family member will be OK...

As a nurse, I can assure you that if there is no DNAR in place, then by law you have to attempt to resusciate. Not to do so can, and will see you end up in court with medical neglience. I have seen this happen to colleagues in the past.

Save their life today, so they can die tomorrow...............

Yes, we famously see NHS staff in court all the time for negligence, don't we? Actually we don't. There is never any accountability. Or perhaps you can cite the court cases of your colleagues and we can look them up?

We're pretty much all unprepared for dying, as much as it's going to happen to all of us. When we're confronted with death and dying, it triggers different things in different people. Almost everyone thinks, what if that was me in that dying scenario? You have a person in this scenario distressed that they're dying. They have a heart attack and then are resussitated. Do you wish all the distress was over for that person and everyone could grieve? Or do you wish for every last second of life and possibly pain? I'll put something on the table. No one can actually grieve for the dying person until they are dead. And it can be emotionally and physically exhausting being with a dying person to the end. Since we can rarely plan our deaths - I'd give everyone the opportunity to voice their opinions, without judgement, because death affects us all.

DNR is put in place as sometimes old people are weak and it can break their ribs etc. sometimes it’s best to let someone go than prolong the agony.

It’s a head and a heart thing
heart you want them to last forever head it’s cruel and the have little or limited quality of life

many a time I looked at my dad and thought if you were a dog you would of been put down long ago. He had a pitiful last few years

Context is key here, e.g. if the person who made the remark is in the medical profession or has personal experience of watching a loved one go through similar, then while their comment lacked tact, it is understandable imo.
Said as someone with experience of working in palliative care and who has also provided care for a family member who went though resuscitation but never woke up.

A rather blunt way to speak, but not everyone is a wordsmith. I imagine your relative was really surprised by the idea that someone in palliative care for a terminal disease would be resuscitated.

For a person dying, the end point is death, and when they have a cardiac arrest, it is because their body has finally given out from the effects of the illness. The heart isn't strong enough to keep things going.

Maybe you can restart things, but it doesn't change the underlying situation, the heart still can't cope, and it will happen again unless another body system fails first. And each time they recissitate, there is going to be damage, maybe serious damage.

Sometime there might be a specific reason the person is waiting, maybe to see a loved one. But when it's kind of general, I think it's a way to avoid the reality that end of life is immanent. And that is not a good thing to avoid coming to terms with.

Doctors and Paramedics don’t.

It was incredibly incentive, but people do tend to talk without thinking around situations like this!
How many times do you hear someone say “oh that was a good age” like being in their 90’s makes it somehow easier to except a loved one is gone forever 🫤

What a terribly blunt way to say something. No, it should not have been said that way. Is it true? Very possibly. But STILL no way to say it.

Since your relative wanted more time with family, it was the right thing to do FOR THAT PERSON. Before I switched to psychiatric medicine (I was a psych technician), I worked for almost 15 years in respiratory therapy. One of the reason I made the move was that much of what I did was with terminal patientss, and a good many of those had cancer. I saw the agony that they were in. Much of it intractable. And all too often, they had NOT requested a DNR, leaving the family with the choice.

Myself? I have both DNR and Advance Directives in place, and my elder son has a limited power of attorney should I become incapacitated, along with a LONG list of exactly how I want medical intervention handled.

we signed a DNR for dad who Alzheimer’s- I can’t see the point of breaking his ribs to keep him alive! Want him to die peacefully if possible.. if I find him, I won’t be rushing to ring the ambulance (be hours away anyway 😩Think it’s cruel & pointless at a certain age. He’s 84. My friends mum was resuscitated, she ended up with locked in syndrome, her eyes would follow you around the room, because that’s all she good move, it was horrendous for the lady & her family. it was months before she passed away, should have just left her at peace.

Depends on the situation, what illness? How long they have left in life!

She was very harsh saying that but taking emotional connection out of it, if someone is in pain they can't be helped they are better off dead then living in pain.

It sounds like she didn't say it in a very tactful way and it's hard to hear when someone you love is nearing the end of their life, but the hospital wouldn't have encouraged a DNR without good reason. Resuscitation is brutal, cracked ribs, pain and a huge toll on your body. Most doctors and nurses wouldn't wish that pain on anyone, especially someone who is nearing the end of their life anyway. I'm so sorry about your granddad, it must be heartbreaking for all who love him. I hope you can enjoy the time he has left.

Can a hospital force someone to sign a DNR when they want to stay alive as long as possible? I’m a bit shocked at this.