They're better off dead... AIBU?

[CupcakeOdssey]

Not sure if I'm being funny here or what.

How you feel if this was said to you?

One of my close family members has cancer that has spread all over, they are on palliative care and taken it badly.
They had a heart attack and was resuscitated by hospital but now they've said they've signed a DNR as they're to weak to cope with that again.

I was telling one of my in laws about said family member and they said "why did they resuscitate them for? That was stupid they are better off dead!"

How would you take that? I'm quite shocked and a bit hurt by their comment.

I hope the journey is a smooth one.

The remark - and most replies here - are the reason I'm not in favour of relaxed "assisted dying" laws.

Family member wants as much time as they can get before passing away

It's really easy to say you'd sacrifice any good moments to come - when it's not your sacrifice.

Family member wants as much time as they can get before passing away

That's understandable OP, and I'm sorry they're going through this at all, but while I wouldn't have put it like this to the family it seems senseless for the medics to do something so clearly not in their best interests

Is the next of kin perhaps one of these of the persuasion that they've got to be kept alive at all costs and likely to raise a stink if they're not?

Apart from being insensitive, isn’t it stupid as well? Doctors have to resuscitate if there’s no DNR don’t they? They can’t just decide ‘oh he’s got cancer, let’s not bother’

Yes, insensitive, but they’re not wrong imo. I definitely wouldn’t want resuscitated if it was me or mine to be honest. Resuscitation can be brutal, especially in a weakened state.

No family member didn't hear as my in law is part of my husbands family, It just came up in conversation I don't usually tell my husbands family anything about my own family as they can be well... like this. I wouldn't have my in laws anywhere near my family.

No next of kin is elderly and in denial about family members impending end of life. Thinks they'll get better and have chemo even though chemo isn't an option, they basically went downhill extremely fast.

Hospital overstepped anyway and it's done now. Just a stupid comment that I've let get the better of me I think!

I’m very sorry - very sad situation. Your in- law was very insensitive. Can your DH have a word? He should at least make it clear that nothing similar should be said again.

The comment by the in law was hideously blunt and insensitive, but unfortunately it may be accurate. Sorry.

It wouldn't shock me at all. His life, his choice, and sadly his pain. I wouldn't wish anyone past the point of recovery to suffer for longer than necessary.

I have an elderly relative who has heart failure, not quite end stage but advanced enough for him to need ever more frequent emergency admissions via ambulance. Virtually the first thing the paramedics want to know is if there is a DNR in place. There is - because he doesn't want resuscitation and all it involves, and would rather be allowed to slip away quietly, with pain relief if necessary. He's told everyone it's his choice and, painful though it is, they're respecting his wishes.

Hospital forced the DNR ...

Just seen you updated with this, OP, and given the circumstances you've described I'm sure they have your loved one's best interests in mind

I've edited this to add I cross posted with you again, but while "the next of kin is elderly and in denial about family members impending end of life. Thinks they'll get better and have chemo even though chemo isn't an option" is sadly no surprise at this very sad time it's hardly helpful to the patient and that's who the staff will rightly prioritise

They'll always try to carry the relatives with them in these decisions, but do ultimately have the right to say no to further treatment

https://www.rochelegal.co.uk/resources/help-guides/do-not-resuscitate-dnr-decisions/#:~:text=Doctors%20may%20decide%20to%20impose,patient%20even%20without%20their%20consent.

But what about the people who do want a quick end and don't want to hang on at any price?

When my dad was diagnosed with end stage terminal cancer he begged the drs to put him out of his misery. He kept saying if he was a dog people would do the kind thing. He was a very kind man who had always been strong and known the right thing to do. He knew exactly what he wanted at the end.

I was with him for most of his last couple of weeks in hospital and I was very nearly broken by seeing what he went through.

This is why I am in favour of assisted dying.

It’s just someone who’s really pragmatic about death and probably also about health. But blunt tho but sometimes people like this (I am one) think we are talking to other people like us and get the tone wrong.

Hmm I've seen someone die of cancer in a really hideous way, truly was better off dead by the end. Maybe they didn't word it nicely but it is true.

A close family member was a nurse caring for a patient with terminal cancer and only a very short time to live. The patient had a heart attack and the staff momentarily looked at each other as they knew he didn't have a DNR so they had to carry out CPR. They all felt it would have been kinder to allow him to die but they had no choice.

It's a horrible thing for someone to say out loud, unbidden.

If say, it's your mum or dad who is dying and has been told they are now DNR, that can take coming to terms with, for them and you.

For someone to say 'so what, they're better off dead' is horrible. Callous, harsh, unfeeling and a distinct lack of emotional intelligence,

So what if it might be factual? It's not their decision to make, is it.

It was an insensitive way to put it but I'd think the same.

Someone I know has been bedridden, unable to feed themselves and with no quality of life for months - they had a DNR in place but when they stopped breathing a couple of weeks ago a relative did cpr! They're still alive now and continuing to suffer.

I agree with the sentiment but not with the blunt and harsh execution. The end of life in a cancer patient can be very cruel, so to slip away is kinder, but your in-law shouldn't have expressed themself in that crude, unfeeling way. I'm so sorry for your family.

Indeed, I'd say this is cruel.

If someone said it to me, I'd think it was insensitive. But in the cold light of day, I'd see what they were saying was true.

But I do personally think it's madness to resuscitate someone suffering with terminal cancer, or an elderly person where their quality of life is poor.

Sorry you're going through this but whilst I think your relative was incredibly insensitive, I think they were right. CPR is brutal especially on a weak elderly person and often results in awful injuries.

I don't think the hospital overstepped at all, I think they're acting in their patient's best interests.

I still haven't forgiven my sister for making my DDad's last day awful with her insistence that his respect form shouldn't be changed to DNR. When she finally changed her mind about an hour before his death the poor paramedic was ringing round in the middle of the night trying to get hold of a GP who could change it. Thankfully he died without it being needed. My DMum is making sure she gets one sorted with her GP so that I never have to go through it again.

But what about the people who do want a quick end and don't want to hang on at any price?

Sadly they often have to continue to suffer, because there's a difference between supporting someone who's dying and actively bringing that death about

I've a fairly open mind about assisted dying, but post-Shipman it's understandable that staff need to do everything by the book, even though there are doubtless still compassionate medics who'll "help" when a case really is hopeless

The opinion itself was reasonable. Their decision to express that opinion to you was not reasonable.

It's exactly what I said about my own Dad last year. I signed his DNR. He was suffering and all treatment was simply prolonging his suffering.

Some family members didn't agree with him or me. The DNR was at his own request.

Sometimes people wanting more time with a suffering family member is selfish, even if it is understandable that they don't want to let him go. I couldn't bear watching him suffer, suffocating slowly.

I don't regret signing the DNR or wanting it to be over. I loved him very much.

Well if you don’t have a DNR then they have to attempt to resuscitate - that’s why it’s best to sign one when on palliative care. My mums friends brother was resuscitated when he died from cancer due to this (successfully) only to die the next day. If my dad hadn’t signed one I’d have waited before calling the ambulance as quite frankly he had enough weeks before and it was horrible for everyone. I’d have had a pet PTS in same circumstances