Page 6 | To wonder if schools can do this!

adviceneeded1990 · 09/03/2024 18:38

Viviennemary · 09/03/2024 14:56

The school are out of order and should repay the cost of the trip. Take them to the small claims court. It's cheeky.

😂😂😂

FrippEnos · 09/03/2024 18:38

Brightredtulips · 09/03/2024 17:21

Does the school not have insurance against this? Will a teacher take his place and go on a jolly? Your son was sticking up for himself. I'd be furious and I work in a secondary school.

You "work" in a school and still put forward that its a "jolly" .

adviceneeded1990 · 09/03/2024 18:45

MrsMurphyIWish · 09/03/2024 16:03

Although I’m a member of the Mr P’s podcast group (for teachers) and someone sent a story in that the police turned up at their school to investigate a claim that a teacher had stolen their child’s PE kit so there are people out there who do follow bonkers advice.

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Teacher here - people are batshit 😅 and definitely agree that they follow bonkers advice! I once had a parent with a boy who had racked up 24 violent incidents towards myself, the LCA and multiple other children in a ten week term and other kids were crying in fear when he came to school. Upper primary! Mum attended meeting about next steps and told myself and my head teacher that her neighbour told her to get a solicitor and “sue the arse off us for sexism.” She felt he clearly had all these issues because we preferred teaching girls…

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 09/03/2024 18:46

RatatouillePie · 09/03/2024 18:37

If it was a child I knew well and this was extremely out of character and a one off then yes I'd have no issues taking them.

I'm guessing there was not enough time to investigate but given the excellent track record the school should probably offer to refund the £300 less an admin fee if there was no prior policy about behaviour.

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My concern with this would be that if the behaviour was so out of character and violent, it could be a symptom of something more serious. Violence/lashing out/losing control can be a symptom relating to mental health issues, especially in teenagers, especially in teenage boys.

Can your school really just afford to suck up a £300 loss?

HaPPy8 · 09/03/2024 18:50

I wouldn’t be happy about this. You’ve essentially paid for something and not received it. £300 is a lot of money and I think this is a disproportionate response based on the information given. I’d want my money back.

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 09/03/2024 18:51

https://www.farmors.gloucs.sch.uk/ckfinder/userfiles/files/Trips%20T%26C%27s.pdf

https://www.standishchs.wigan.sch.uk/force_download.cfm?id=2183

https://www.stbarts.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/School-Trips-terms-conditions.pdf

Three random schools taken from the top of google with the same policy, it's clearly not unusual...

FrippEnos · 09/03/2024 18:52

All the trips that I have ever seen run have had behaviour clauses in them.

RatatouillePie · 09/03/2024 18:53

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 09/03/2024 18:46

My concern with this would be that if the behaviour was so out of character and violent, it could be a symptom of something more serious. Violence/lashing out/losing control can be a symptom relating to mental health issues, especially in teenagers, especially in teenage boys.

Can your school really just afford to suck up a £300 loss?

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Sometimes a school don't have a choice if they're skating on thin ice over the grounds of refusing the trip.

If there was sufficient evidence that the boy was provoked then the punishment is too harsh but as I said, there probably wasn't time to investigate so offering a refund would be fair if the school feel the punishment was too severe.

Particularly if the other person that provoked them did have a history of poor behaviour.

Bushmillsbabe · 09/03/2024 18:55

Topofthemountain · 09/03/2024 13:25

It is often in the T&C of the trip. A harsh lesson for all though.

My DD is due on a college trip soon to London, a mix of 16, 17 and 18 year olds. Apparently there is a teacher on standby in the NE to drive down and collect any pupils breaking rules, including drinking. Schools take behaviour on trips very seriously.

Surely it would be on the parents to come collect rather than another teacher? The teacher wouldn't be insured to drive a child in own car, and couldn't be alone with a child for such an extended time period due to safeguarding rules.

I take children on trip (girlguiding) and its made very clear that a parent needs to be available to come collect their child in case of sickness or any other reason

Whilst I absolutely agree that violence is never ok, if the school was aware of the other child's behaviour if long term issue and did nothing there is an element that they are also accountable. Have you asked the school if any flexibility on this, for example could attend if you came as a parent helper? Probably not, but just a thought

Dacadactyl · 09/03/2024 18:55

I would be FUMING about this, but it would be with my son, not the school.

Muchtoomuchtodo · 09/03/2024 18:58

Bushmillsbabe · 09/03/2024 18:55

Surely it would be on the parents to come collect rather than another teacher? The teacher wouldn't be insured to drive a child in own car, and couldn't be alone with a child for such an extended time period due to safeguarding rules.

I take children on trip (girlguiding) and its made very clear that a parent needs to be available to come collect their child in case of sickness or any other reason

Whilst I absolutely agree that violence is never ok, if the school was aware of the other child's behaviour if long term issue and did nothing there is an element that they are also accountable. Have you asked the school if any flexibility on this, for example could attend if you came as a parent helper? Probably not, but just a thought

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My dc is off to USA with school for a week over Easter. Would a parent really be expected to pick them up? They’d be home again before I managed to get enough money together and book return flights!

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 09/03/2024 19:00

RatatouillePie · 09/03/2024 18:53

Sometimes a school don't have a choice if they're skating on thin ice over the grounds of refusing the trip.

If there was sufficient evidence that the boy was provoked then the punishment is too harsh but as I said, there probably wasn't time to investigate so offering a refund would be fair if the school feel the punishment was too severe.

Particularly if the other person that provoked them did have a history of poor behaviour.

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I mean, the student's been in a fight, no one is denying that. I think there's sufficient evidence to say that going on a trip isn't appropriate.

They've punched someone. Today. Who's to say that if someone winds them up on the bus, they'd not punch that person as well, and potentially dangerously distract the driver?

It's about everyone's safety, regardless of provocation.

I agree they may not deserve another harsh punishment such as exclusion, but this is totally different.

When you say "thin ice" who is the parent actually going to complain to in this case?

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 09/03/2024 19:01

Bushmillsbabe · 09/03/2024 18:55

Surely it would be on the parents to come collect rather than another teacher? The teacher wouldn't be insured to drive a child in own car, and couldn't be alone with a child for such an extended time period due to safeguarding rules.

I take children on trip (girlguiding) and its made very clear that a parent needs to be available to come collect their child in case of sickness or any other reason

Whilst I absolutely agree that violence is never ok, if the school was aware of the other child's behaviour if long term issue and did nothing there is an element that they are also accountable. Have you asked the school if any flexibility on this, for example could attend if you came as a parent helper? Probably not, but just a thought

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Teachers can transport children in their own car with business insurance. Or it may be using the school minibus. I imagine two staff would do the drive home, but I may be wrong.

FrippEnos · 09/03/2024 19:05

Muchtoomuchtodo · 09/03/2024 18:58

My dc is off to USA with school for a week over Easter. Would a parent really be expected to pick them up? They’d be home again before I managed to get enough money together and book return flights!

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I suspect that it would depend on the trip, but I have known parents have to collect their children from international trips in Europe.

But on a USA trip I would have thought a teacher would have to fly back with the child.

Original poster

LondonElle · 09/03/2024 19:06

I fully accept the consequences, I won't be making a complaint despite how frustrating is it.

I just needed to get different perspectives which I have gotten and appreciate.

My son has never been physical before but that being said he should not have reacted in the manner he did. It's a hard lesson to learn but a crucial one.

His record prior to this was a good one but he messed up badly and I accept this.

OP posts:

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 09/03/2024 19:26

LondonElle · 09/03/2024 19:06

I fully accept the consequences, I won't be making a complaint despite how frustrating is it.

I just needed to get different perspectives which I have gotten and appreciate.

My son has never been physical before but that being said he should not have reacted in the manner he did. It's a hard lesson to learn but a crucial one.

His record prior to this was a good one but he messed up badly and I accept this.

If this is out of character for your son, it might be good to check in with him in general- how he is feeling, has he been especially irritable recently, does he ever feel overwhelmed with his feelings etc.

I know pre-teen boys aren't always the most communicative, but I think it would be a good idea to try to help him know he can always communicate with you how he's feeling. Sudden outbursts of anger or increased irritability can be symptoms relating to mental health. I know you say the other boy had been winding him up for a while, but one doesn't necessarily not link to the other.

I do think it would be a good idea to speak to the school on Monday about keeping your son and this boy seperate in the future as well.

Glass113 · 09/03/2024 19:29

LondonElle · 09/03/2024 19:06

I fully accept the consequences, I won't be making a complaint despite how frustrating is it.

I just needed to get different perspectives which I have gotten and appreciate.

My son has never been physical before but that being said he should not have reacted in the manner he did. It's a hard lesson to learn but a crucial one.

His record prior to this was a good one but he messed up badly and I accept this.

I actually wouldn't be too hard on him now. He can't go on the trip which is a punishment and I'm sure he's had a stern talking to at home and feels like shit.

A 12 year old boy letting emotions get the better of him and lashing out when provoked is hardly crime of the century. I'd just discuss with him that violence should only be used as a last resort to defend yourself and try and help him deal with his emotions.

NotStylishOrBeautiful · 09/03/2024 19:30

Excellent post from @LividBath

Anyone who ever describes a school trip (especially a residential) as a jolly should have to learn it by heart.

Henryhover · 09/03/2024 19:31

I understand that he's been wrong but so has that kid for bullying him!! They should both be punished and the school should have an anti bullying policy. I'd ask for the money back for the fact that the other kid hasn't been pulled up of bullying

dapsnotplimsolls · 09/03/2024 19:44

The school certainly shouldn't expect to be out of pocket. I suggest your son has minimal birthday and Christmas presents or does a crapload of jobs around the house/garden to make up for it.

RatatouillePie · 09/03/2024 19:48

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 09/03/2024 19:00

I mean, the student's been in a fight, no one is denying that. I think there's sufficient evidence to say that going on a trip isn't appropriate.

They've punched someone. Today. Who's to say that if someone winds them up on the bus, they'd not punch that person as well, and potentially dangerously distract the driver?

It's about everyone's safety, regardless of provocation.

I agree they may not deserve another harsh punishment such as exclusion, but this is totally different.

When you say "thin ice" who is the parent actually going to complain to in this case?

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The thin ice depends on whether the school has a policy to ban a pupil from a trip given their previous impeccable record.

If the school trip was 2 weeks away, would they have been allowed to go? If no then fair enough. If yes then a refund should be given.

The punishment for the other child should also be comparable. Will they be banned from a future trip?

I've seen lovely kids lose it with someone as they'd said something vile to them to deliberately wind them up when they were down. Most kids will react if the right buttons are pushed. Adults too.

starlight889 · 10/03/2024 18:15

LondonElle · 09/03/2024 12:54

My 12 year old son was due to go on a sports trip on Friday for the weekend.
We had paid in full for this (over £300.)

He stupidly got involved in a fight the day of the trip ( out of character ) after another boy called him names.

No excuses he was in the wrong and will be punished severely...

I am not minimising what he did.. he was an absolute idiot.

The school pulled the trip which has led to us being out of pocket and he is in isolation on Monday.

I have mixed feeling about this as I'm not sure the school had much of a choice and couldn't fill his place at short notice but part of me thinks due to the bad press the school has recently received and the lack of pastoral support in his year group that an example may have been made of him ( which may be a good thing)

Do I have to suck it up and accept this... don't hold back.. I need cold hard truths!

I know I will be in the minority here but I would still expect him on the trip. You’ve paid hundreds for it so if they really didn’t want him on the trip, they should pay it back.

I get getting in a fight needs a consequence (but I believe in natural consequences so not going on a trip is unrelated and isn’t one to me) but what messaged does it send? You defend yourself against a bully and you’re punished? That to me just sends the message that school won’t help and when you try sort it yourself, you are the one punished.

Im a teacher and we would never use this type of consequence (although I am not in a state school)

starlight889 · 10/03/2024 18:18

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 09/03/2024 16:27

It's a natural consequence of his actions. He showed that he was unable to regulate his behaviour appropriately by getting into a fight, so the school don't want the responsibility of taking him on a trip. Fair enough. Hopefully he will learn from it.

A natural consequence to a fight is getting hurt. Not going on a school trip because of a fight is NOT a natural consequence because the two have no direct correlation.

Caravaggiouch · 10/03/2024 18:19

Sounds like a logical consequence. Unless he’s primary school age he shouldn’t really need forewarning that getting in a fight will result in loss of privileges like a school trip; it’s obvious that’s what would happen.

VerbenaGirl · 10/03/2024 18:37

Yes, schools can do this. They have to, both as a behaviour sanction and because they can’t afford to give refunds if balances have been paid and are not reclaimable via insurance (which they wouldn’t be in these circumstances). The school’s policy should clearly set this out and probably also letters about the trip.