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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

DD has been removed

457 replies

Flojoloco · 06/03/2024 00:24

DD is 15 with additional needs. Things have been getting progressively difficult. Today she told her social worker that I hit her and there is a bruise on her face so they removed her. There’s a strat meeting tomorrow and I’ve no idea if she’s coming home or not either way it’s a mess. I either lose my DD or she’s at home and I’m scared of her lies. She’s 5’8” and 14+ stone, she has massive temper tantrums/meltdowns and puts holes in doors etc. I have no doubt if I ever hit her she would paste me. She lives a charmed life but she’s not very happy at the moment and that’s impacting massively. I would never hit her. I’ve no idea where the bruise came from. If she bumped her head on something or deliberately smacked herself in her face. I haven’t seen her but the photo on SW phone didn’t look like a bruise, she just looked blotchy. Either way we need help.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
WhatNoRaisins · 09/03/2024 10:52

It don't think these parents are just doing it at a moments notice, this is a last resort situation. In extreme cases I don't think it would be unreasonable for a parent to remove themself from a dangerous situation even if it is illegal.

Withinthesewalls · 09/03/2024 11:27

WhatNoRaisins · 09/03/2024 10:52

It don't think these parents are just doing it at a moments notice, this is a last resort situation. In extreme cases I don't think it would be unreasonable for a parent to remove themself from a dangerous situation even if it is illegal.

But as far as services are aware it is a moments notice- they get a call from a teenager saying that their mum has hit them and left a bruise and they are scared- this is the first they know of it and they proceed on that basis.

They see a mark on a child who is insisting that their mum is violent- there isn’t any evidence immediately showing that to be untrue except the mum says she didn’t (which they all say), so they take the child for a night while they build a picture of the actual situation.

They do that because the alternative is to leave the child and not know whether there first job the next morning is going to be visiting intensive care because the mum has stabbed the child.

They keep the child safe, they speak to professionals who know the family, they speak to the kid and the mum again and they decide that this is a troubled child with a loving mum. So seeking to back up that belief with a medical, they then try and unite mother and child…

at which point mum says she doesn’t want her back, she does this, says that, mums frightened etc.

So, services suddenly have a much more complex situation than they previously thought and need to deal with it, but in the meantime they don’t have the right to remove the child, the mum doesn’t have the right to give up PR, they don’t have anywhere safe to send the child (because of the total underfunding of services) but they do have a legal duty to safeguard the child- so, with the mum that says she is loving, and evidence shows she probably is, is the best option available for the child in that moment.

Mum then shouts, swears, flip flops about allowing a medical and asks for engagement then refuses engagement and that adds a whole extra layer of complexity to the situation and that means it takes longer for mother or child to get any support.

Children’s social care have a legal duty towards children, and not to impinge or interfere with their parents rights unnecessarily- they don’t have that same duty towards the adults themselves.

That is because historically the focus has been on protecting vulnerable children from dangerous adults and making sure kids can’t be whisked off into care if the SW doesn’t like the look of their parenting style, or they are poor, or immigrants or have special needs or are disabled, all of which used to happen.

You have to bear in mind that the system is based on not repeating atrocities like the 1000’s of children wrongly sent to Australia by SS, and having as few ‘Baby P’ cases as possible.

And in a country where there is basically zero money available for SS, or any of the services that could have stopped the situation the op has escalating to this point, all services are targeted at what is statistically most likely to go badly, and far more children are murdered by their parents than parents are murdered by their children.

The child to parent violence dynamic IS a hole in service provision in all senses- research, statistics, practice guidance, legislation and crucially actual physical resources to access.

WhatNoRaisins · 09/03/2024 11:37

There is a real need for funding to keep these families safe. It bothers me as I have a close friend who knows that this is the situation she will inevitably find herself in despite seeking all the early intervention she can. Her child is still young and she's already sporting some painful injuries. Her mental health is going to shit in the meantime.

greyflannel · 09/03/2024 11:39

Withinthesewalls · 09/03/2024 11:27

But as far as services are aware it is a moments notice- they get a call from a teenager saying that their mum has hit them and left a bruise and they are scared- this is the first they know of it and they proceed on that basis.

They see a mark on a child who is insisting that their mum is violent- there isn’t any evidence immediately showing that to be untrue except the mum says she didn’t (which they all say), so they take the child for a night while they build a picture of the actual situation.

They do that because the alternative is to leave the child and not know whether there first job the next morning is going to be visiting intensive care because the mum has stabbed the child.

They keep the child safe, they speak to professionals who know the family, they speak to the kid and the mum again and they decide that this is a troubled child with a loving mum. So seeking to back up that belief with a medical, they then try and unite mother and child…

at which point mum says she doesn’t want her back, she does this, says that, mums frightened etc.

So, services suddenly have a much more complex situation than they previously thought and need to deal with it, but in the meantime they don’t have the right to remove the child, the mum doesn’t have the right to give up PR, they don’t have anywhere safe to send the child (because of the total underfunding of services) but they do have a legal duty to safeguard the child- so, with the mum that says she is loving, and evidence shows she probably is, is the best option available for the child in that moment.

Mum then shouts, swears, flip flops about allowing a medical and asks for engagement then refuses engagement and that adds a whole extra layer of complexity to the situation and that means it takes longer for mother or child to get any support.

Children’s social care have a legal duty towards children, and not to impinge or interfere with their parents rights unnecessarily- they don’t have that same duty towards the adults themselves.

That is because historically the focus has been on protecting vulnerable children from dangerous adults and making sure kids can’t be whisked off into care if the SW doesn’t like the look of their parenting style, or they are poor, or immigrants or have special needs or are disabled, all of which used to happen.

You have to bear in mind that the system is based on not repeating atrocities like the 1000’s of children wrongly sent to Australia by SS, and having as few ‘Baby P’ cases as possible.

And in a country where there is basically zero money available for SS, or any of the services that could have stopped the situation the op has escalating to this point, all services are targeted at what is statistically most likely to go badly, and far more children are murdered by their parents than parents are murdered by their children.

The child to parent violence dynamic IS a hole in service provision in all senses- research, statistics, practice guidance, legislation and crucially actual physical resources to access.

Just on your narrow question of statistics, I'd be interested to know whether more 15 year olds are killed or injured by their mothers, than mothers are killed or injured by their 15 year olds. I am not convinced the risks run in the way you suggest.

TheSquareMile · 09/03/2024 11:47

Flojoloco · 08/03/2024 20:10

Update - had a meeting today with everyone. It’s been NFA’d and I’m so relieved and hopefully we can begin to move on.
It’s going to be telling the next time DD kicks off. We have another meeting next week on exploring the function and what additional support might be useful

@Flojoloco

I would still explore the legal position vis-a-vis educational possibilities, OP.

You said that she is 15. Does this mean that she will be taking her GCSEs in 2025? What kind of school does she attend at the moment?

greyflannel · 09/03/2024 11:48

I also think the discussion of parental responsibility has become confused. Parental Responsibility relates to the power to make decisions in respect of the child.

greyflannel · 09/03/2024 11:48

I also think the discussion of parental responsibility has become confused. Parental Responsibility relates to the power to make decisions in respect of the child.

Withinthesewalls · 09/03/2024 12:06

greyflannel · 09/03/2024 11:39

Just on your narrow question of statistics, I'd be interested to know whether more 15 year olds are killed or injured by their mothers, than mothers are killed or injured by their 15 year olds. I am not convinced the risks run in the way you suggest.

You would have to go and look it up.

But it doesn’t make a material difference to the legislation.

Which is why I keep saying people in this situation need good legal advice.

And people who want better services need to be out voting and campaigning and doing what they can so that change is made.

Withinthesewalls · 09/03/2024 12:10

greyflannel · 09/03/2024 11:48

I also think the discussion of parental responsibility has become confused. Parental Responsibility relates to the power to make decisions in respect of the child.

It also means that you are responsible for providing for your child- children can not be abandoned- people get away with effectively abandoning their children only because there is another parent taking on the whole responsibility.

If for instance the resident parent died, the other parent would be held responsible for their child, even if they had fucked off and refused to see or pay maintenance for their whole life.

TheSquareMile · 09/03/2024 12:48

@Flojoloco

Which region of the UK are you in, OP?

I was wondering whether there were suitable educational options for you in your part of the country and didn't want to suggest somewhere hundreds of miles from where you live.

greyflannel · 09/03/2024 13:39

Withinthesewalls · 09/03/2024 12:10

It also means that you are responsible for providing for your child- children can not be abandoned- people get away with effectively abandoning their children only because there is another parent taking on the whole responsibility.

If for instance the resident parent died, the other parent would be held responsible for their child, even if they had fucked off and refused to see or pay maintenance for their whole life.

Can you cite the relevant bit of the Children's Act @WWithinthesewalls

Parents who have PR get to determine living arrangements, but in circumstances where they cannot cope with a child's needs or behaviour, or where that is posing a risk to the safety of the child or other household members, then they may negotiate alternatives to them residing in the family home. Or the state may override their wishes and make such a determination to ensure the safety of parties.

Withinthesewalls · 09/03/2024 13:40

greyflannel · 09/03/2024 11:39

Just on your narrow question of statistics, I'd be interested to know whether more 15 year olds are killed or injured by their mothers, than mothers are killed or injured by their 15 year olds. I am not convinced the risks run in the way you suggest.

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8224/CBP-8224.pdf

If you scroll down to pg 16 on here you will see that 2.6% of homicide victims were killed by their child, and 5.2% of homicide victim’s were killed by their parent.

Added to which

https://www.pegsupport.co.uk/first-large-scale-study-of-parental-killing-in-england-and-wales

will show you that out of all child to parent homicides, only 9% of the perpetrators were actually children (sub 18 years old).

So, at least in terms of who is more likely to be killed- it’s minor children by parents. And in terms of which children kill which parent, it’s more likely to be male children and male parents.

If you can find any stats specifically on 15 year olds I’d be interested to see them.

First large-scale study of parental killing in England and Wales

https://www.pegsupport.co.uk/first-large-scale-study-of-parental-killing-in-england-and-wales

greyflannel · 09/03/2024 13:48

Withinthesewalls · 09/03/2024 13:40

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8224/CBP-8224.pdf

If you scroll down to pg 16 on here you will see that 2.6% of homicide victims were killed by their child, and 5.2% of homicide victim’s were killed by their parent.

Added to which

https://www.pegsupport.co.uk/first-large-scale-study-of-parental-killing-in-england-and-wales

will show you that out of all child to parent homicides, only 9% of the perpetrators were actually children (sub 18 years old).

So, at least in terms of who is more likely to be killed- it’s minor children by parents. And in terms of which children kill which parent, it’s more likely to be male children and male parents.

If you can find any stats specifically on 15 year olds I’d be interested to see them.

That wasn't my question.

Withinthesewalls · 09/03/2024 14:01

greyflannel · 09/03/2024 13:48

That wasn't my question.

Just on your narrow question of statistics, I'd be interested to know whether more 15 year olds are killed or injured by their mothers, than mothers are killed or injured by their 15 year olds. I am not convinced the risks run in the way you suggest.

That is your question- as I said, I have only responded within the limits of the data I have easily to hand, so I haven’t picked out specifically 15 year olds, and I haven’t brought up injuries.

I could do that for you, but since it’s you that wants that specific data (exactly 15 years old, killed or injured), why don’t you go and look it up?

greyflannel · 09/03/2024 14:13

We won't have access to accurate injury figures because of the problem of chronic underreporting. But I think you are in danger of mischaracterising risk in relationships between mothers and teens displaying violent behaviour.

Withinthesewalls · 09/03/2024 14:41

greyflannel · 09/03/2024 14:13

We won't have access to accurate injury figures because of the problem of chronic underreporting. But I think you are in danger of mischaracterising risk in relationships between mothers and teens displaying violent behaviour.

As I said, you are welcome to go and find any stats, I’d be happy to read them.

I am not a statistician, but I do understand how the SS system works, and the basis on which decisions are made.

A SW who jumped in and housed a child in this situation (I.e where there is a safe home available, even if the parents don’t want them) would be very likely to be hauled over the coals by the IRO for unlawful removal of a child. That might not be what SHOULD happen, but it’s what DOES happen, because that is the law.

bathinginbeans · 09/03/2024 16:49

OP, try posting on the Family Rights Group. They were really helpful when we went through something similar.

Our sons were older teenagers when things came to a head. Unfortunately, in our case, Children's Social Care did very little and waited for the boys to pass into adult social care.

cactidream · 09/03/2024 20:17

Flojoloco · 08/03/2024 20:10

Update - had a meeting today with everyone. It’s been NFA’d and I’m so relieved and hopefully we can begin to move on.
It’s going to be telling the next time DD kicks off. We have another meeting next week on exploring the function and what additional support might be useful

you need to - for your own safety, and her well-being admit her to a hospital.
you are not doing any favour by keeping her at home

Withinthesewalls · 09/03/2024 21:25

cactidream · 09/03/2024 20:17

you need to - for your own safety, and her well-being admit her to a hospital.
you are not doing any favour by keeping her at home

What sort of hospital?!

cactidream · 11/03/2024 01:48

Withinthesewalls · 09/03/2024 21:25

What sort of hospital?!

mental?
protecting her will only escalate- she is doing crazy things not safe for OP

x2boys · 11/03/2024 03:11

cactidream · 11/03/2024 01:48

mental?
protecting her will only escalate- she is doing crazy things not safe for OP

How do you propose to have somebody admitted to.a mental.healh hospital?

Underhisi · 11/03/2024 05:58

"mental?
protecting her will only escalate- she is doing crazy things not safe for OP"

It is health professionals that decide that and the OPs daughter is nowhere near the level of hospital admittance.

cactidream · 11/03/2024 15:20

Underhisi · 11/03/2024 05:58

"mental?
protecting her will only escalate- she is doing crazy things not safe for OP"

It is health professionals that decide that and the OPs daughter is nowhere near the level of hospital admittance.

I had similar situation in my close circle - girl was adopted.
They decided to work with her, and it only got worse.
They are destroyed now- mentally, physically - it destroyed their relations with other people/family members as well.

This is not normal- and actually getting worse.

Having the whole background explained- she needs to learn the hard way

x2boys · 11/03/2024 19:58

cactidream · 11/03/2024 15:20

I had similar situation in my close circle - girl was adopted.
They decided to work with her, and it only got worse.
They are destroyed now- mentally, physically - it destroyed their relations with other people/family members as well.

This is not normal- and actually getting worse.

Having the whole background explained- she needs to learn the hard way

Yes but you still.can't get someone admitted to a mental health hospital its not that simple!

cactidream · 12/03/2024 01:41

x2boys · 11/03/2024 19:58

Yes but you still.can't get someone admitted to a mental health hospital its not that simple!

well… maybe to some sort of institution or care

OP are you ok?