To think men just hate women?

[Justsomethoughts]

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that men must despise us. I think the news today about Wayne Couzens has got me pondering… My thoughts as follows:

Ive read so many threads on here about how little men contribute to household work.
Women are expected to do 99% of housework and childcare whilst sucking it up and looking pretty. This percentage doesn’t seem to change much if they also work. God forbid women complain (I refuse to use the word nag, a word only used by men when talking about women!) as they asked for a family and should be grateful they have a husband and children.

We should look visually appealing/maintain our appearance for as long as possible but not too much - that would be ‘asking for it’. If we don’t we will probably be replaced by a younger/more attractive model.

We can’t walk alone at night as we are at risk of harm (by men).

A very large proportion of female homicides are committed by males living with the victim

The list goes on and on. I know these aren’t brand new facts and obviously ‘not all men’ before people come for me but my god it’s so depressing when you think about it.

But that ignores the structure, and impact of precursor offending. What we know now is that domestic violence for men at least is something that has a pattern and structure that will not just be violent. We know that there will be elements of control and other forms of abuse (mostly in a nuclear family arrangement) by men and this male dominated.

The other thing we have to consider is effect and harm. The law applies equally to everyone but physical disparity matters when there is actual violence.

The current laws regarding coercion are a good step forward. Domestic violence should not be isolated from other abuse. It paints a picture that focuses on too small a part. When actually, violent men will have a cycle of behaviours to control women and children. This creates victims who struggle to assert themselves or when they do, then there is violence as enforcement.

Patterns of criminal offending matter in domestic cases. Not just focussing on violent acts. That is the old logic of a system designed by men in criminal justice

But surely it's a bit different if you're being actively told you're not welcome.

I certainly am. I don't care if people think I'm 'fucking awful', I have zero tolerance for mealy mouthed bullshit and I call things as I see them. IDGAF who that upsets.

The thing is, when discussions are not derailed by NAMALTS hurling insults they can be very productive and educational. Normally it moves onto why (from toxic masculinity,to ACEs )and then solutions/how to tackle it. I've been on similar threads before and have learned so much. Then learned some more by researching certain studies or terms I had not encountered before. I've found organisations and campaigns that support women and girls which I now support/contribute to . How to approach and tackle behaviour and attitudes in children (this was topped up a lot with training from work). It can actually make a change, make us think and change attitudes so there's less boys will be boys, he's mean because he fancies you,guilty tears and so much more that are so harmful early on. It also gave me the courage and conviction to challenge it when other adults around them say and promote these attitudes .

I work with kids and try every day to do my little bit where they are concerned for all of their safety and futures.

There is so much we can do at ground level, while also campaigning and lobbying MP's the justice system and the government to take these issues seriously , even if it feels like emptying the sea with a bucket at times.

It's still better than pretending there is no problem or giving up.

He has seen one poster on this thread expressing a preference that MN is a women only space. Yet he chooses to personalise it and extrapolate from that, that its the reason his posts have failed to recieve the attention he thinks they deserve. One poster mildly stating a preference, qualified by a statement she doesn't hate men, on one thread, has led him to conclude MN is place where men are ignored by man hating women. Which you must admit is somewhat ironic given he is also here to tell us off about generalising that all men hate us.

Let's be honest. People moan a fair bit about men on here. Usually it's posters claiming to support equality.

@PaperDoIIs - having worked in criminal justice I agree with you. Men in prison report overwhelmingly having violent fathers. Either to them as children or towards their mother.

Domestic violence is poorly punished and hard to prove. Our society would be greatly improved by dealing with it more harshly. Women and children would have better lives. The old narrative about male female violence is wrong. What actually happens is that the children are strongly affected by it. This plays out over a lifetime and down generations of families.

I don't mean as in moaning in general. I mean the "why do we have to put up with all these men on a women's site?" type of posts.

As mumsnet's logo is 'By Parents, for Parents' a man with children is arguably more the intended audience than a childless woman, although really all are welcome.

I have seen a fair few posts from women about men on MN, but the offended male poster had seen only one was my point.
Yes you're right, some women would prefer men didn't post here at all. But in the main that's because of certain trends in male behaviour on here. The 'man here!' posts that suggest the women need to pay them special attention; the interrupting of threads about male to female abuse, harassment and violence with anecdotes about when women treated them badly; the MRAs; the perpetually offended who can't participate in a discussion on societal problems without centering themselves and their hurt feelings. If men on MN stopped doing all these things, no one would have a problem. We would probably just assume they were women.

You forgot about the perverts.

I always thought the "man here" posts were just being up front more than anything. Like, the first question usually asked on here if somebody gives a non-standard opinion is "are you a man?".

I think you're being a little unfair. I don't think that I deserve attention at all. I mentioned that in passing because I've always been a bit uncertain about whether a man is intruding by being here. It's absolutely possible that it's not relevant, and that my replies are dull.

I didn't suggest MN is full of man-hating women, only that (based on the explicit comment) some would prefer men didn't post here. You've extrapolated that and put words in my mouth which don't reflect what I said or what I think.

I certainly didn't tell anyone off about generalising that men hate women. I shared my opinion on the topic of the post, which I meant constructively.

Genuinely, I don't understand your hostility..but since I'm somehow getting heat for posting, not posting, listening to pp who started this tangent, and telling women off, I really don't think I could say anything you wouldn't crticise.

I don't care if people think I'm 'fucking awful'

oh good lord, no one said you were fucking awful

Are you secretly Katie Hopkins?

I went out last night.

A man approached me and asked me to dance. He was... persistent. He clearly wasn't taking no for an answer.

He doesn't hate women but, to him and men like him, a woman saying no is inconvenient and stands in the way of him doing what he wants to.

His mate was at the bar. When he returned and saw, he intervened and removed him. He came back a few minutes later after giving his mate a quiet but obviously stern talking to, and apologised.

It wasn't his mates place to apologise of course but that is what men should be doing when other men are behaving like dicks.

I've had other men do similar in the past. They don't all turn a blind eye and it's appreciated.

It wasn't his mates place to apologise of course but that is what men should be doing when other men are behaving like dicks.

I think it was nice of his mate but ultimately nobody is responsible for the actions of other individuals.

Would you accept responsibility for the actions of other women? I know I wouldn't.

No but it was his way of acknowledging that although it was his mate and not himself, it was wrong.

I meant other men should be intervening and showing men that it isn't acceptable behaviour and that men aren't OK with it either, it's not just women. Not that men should apologise for other men. That wasn't clear.

No, but when we've been out and my mates were (drunken)dicks I have removed them from the situation and yes ,I did apologise on their behalf as the discerning/functioning adult present.

Men showing other men that not only is their behaviour unacceptable,but worthy of an apology, is not a bad thing.

I fortunately have never had the thought that men hate women, the men in my life would be the opposite to that stance.

I think some women marry inconsiderate men who turn out to be bad people and choosing the right life partner can make or break life long personal happiness.

My advice to my daughter will always be to choose very wisely and of course it’s even more important that I raise my son to be respectful and teach him that equality within the household is not negotiable.

Caitlin Moran explains it really well here - https://graziadaily.co.uk/life/real-life/caitlin-moran-husband/

OK, if you're saying that good men should lead by example then I can agree with that. However, it's also a common view on here that the good men need to sort out the bad men/intervene etc. I think if I was a man I'd be taking into consideration the serious possibility of being assaulted when dealing with drunken and possibly aggressive men. The chance of a bloke being assaulted is significantly higher, like 4x I think, and the police don't always side with the 'right' person in self defence cases.

Well, someone needs to sort out the situation. If not the good men, then who?

The man in the example categorically doesn’t listen to women - that was the original problem. So if someone is going to point out the error of his ways, it has to be a man.

I don’t think you need to bring violence into this particular scenario; a mate pulling up his friend is unlikely to lead to a fight. This is just low-level calling out. It needs to be happening amongst the good men and the men just falling short of being the good men.

The alternative is the persistent male being egged on by his mates, or congratulated for his dickish behaviour. That happens a lot. The group of men can’t specifically be accused of anything (if they’re just back-slapping etc) so they wouldn’t feature on any of your statistics, but they’re 100% part of the problem and have the power to change the status quo in a way that women do not.

So, yeah - men need to do more.

It's a societal issue. Men are no more responsible for the actions of other individuals than women are. An innocent person is innocent.

But that’s my point. Most men aren’t innocent; they’re complicit. They’re the mates looking blandly on or laughing along as their mates cause discomfort to a woman. Other women aren’t laughing along. Many men are.

Men listen to other men. Men respond to how they’re being perceived by their mates. It’s pack mentality.

Have you never observed how groups of teenage boys and girls act? I have; I’m a teacher. The boys regularly behave in ways that antagonise the girls. They feed off the girls’ annoyance and their mates’ approval.

Men in these situations are often not innocent.

It's like when people on here say "oh, but who attacked him....another man." Ultimately just victim blaming.

It's sometimes more accurate to look at things in terms of criminal/non criminal, innocent/guilty, rather than male/female. Otherwise we end up with the situation seen in this thread where all men are being criticised for something 99.99% of them don't do. If we looked at criminal/non criminal instead we'd be criticising less than 1% rather than the whole group.

A number of the male police officers working alongside that monster who killed Sarah Everard were complicit in a way that female officers were not. You know this.