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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think men just hate women?

1000 replies

Justsomethoughts · 29/02/2024 22:03

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that men must despise us. I think the news today about Wayne Couzens has got me pondering… My thoughts as follows:

Ive read so many threads on here about how little men contribute to household work.
Women are expected to do 99% of housework and childcare whilst sucking it up and looking pretty. This percentage doesn’t seem to change much if they also work. God forbid women complain (I refuse to use the word nag, a word only used by men when talking about women!) as they asked for a family and should be grateful they have a husband and children.

We should look visually appealing/maintain our appearance for as long as possible but not too much - that would be ‘asking for it’. If we don’t we will probably be replaced by a younger/more attractive model.

We can’t walk alone at night as we are at risk of harm (by men).

A very large proportion of female homicides are committed by males living with the victim

The list goes on and on. I know these aren’t brand new facts and obviously ‘not all men’ before people come for me but my god it’s so depressing when you think about it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
bombastix · 08/03/2024 08:17

This is a bit more relevant; women and girls who are victimised by men are suffering and it's this abuse that drives mental illness in them.

www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/08/abuse-is-main-driver-of-mental-ill-health-in-women-and-girls-say-psychiatrists

I don't really think the discussion about appearance and victim mentality helps. It is an illusion of some sort of control against what is very nasty reality for women in the U.K.

bragpuss · 08/03/2024 08:18

We have to treat it like what it is, a culture war. We need to win it. So yes it does need women to fight to change things because men aren't going to concede. The fact that men have more power means its not going to be easy but thats why we need to be smart.

cerisepanther73 · 08/03/2024 08:23

@PaperDoIIs i think 🤔 you've hit a nerve, hit the nail on the head
with your i post on @LovelyTheresa
in regards of " men and not my kind of men are like that ect"

You 👌 know @LovelyTheresa

It's possible to have the good fortune in life to have good men in your life, and be happily married or
in a relationship with a man,

and still have experinced come across misogynistic arseholes toxic men too
or
know females friends who have,

even if no females in your circle have ever experienced any misogynistic attitudes or behaviour?

And still acknowledge the very valid reasons why there is a real need for the roots of misogynistic toxic behaviour and attitudes to be seriously tackled as an emergency priority ,

We look at other countries like the middle East and think about their issues on women's rights,
and it's easy to think in a smug way in western countries ,
we are not as bad as places like middle East and other countries that have child marriages or where males babies from day one are more favoured, feminine ect
we are better than those countries in regards of women's rights,

However in reality,

Are western countries are we really as progressive 🤔 and enlightened as a society as we like to think we are,
compared to other countries ive mentioned about,
in regards of tackling issues that specifically effect women and female children in detrimental far reaching ramifications ways?

BarbaricPeach · 08/03/2024 08:38

I don't think most individual men hate women, collectively or individually. I also don't feel the "women do 99% of the work at home and men are lazy unappreciative incompetents who do nothing" is reflected in the relationships around me. Maybe it's a generational thing, I see it more among older men and women (even just 10 years plus seems to make the difference, I'm 35).

I do think even most well-intentioned men don't realise how much women (as a whole) are disadvantaged by men (as a whole). But I think a lot of women also don't realise this, unless they have children.

Justsomethoughts · 08/03/2024 08:41

BarbaricPeach · 08/03/2024 08:38

I don't think most individual men hate women, collectively or individually. I also don't feel the "women do 99% of the work at home and men are lazy unappreciative incompetents who do nothing" is reflected in the relationships around me. Maybe it's a generational thing, I see it more among older men and women (even just 10 years plus seems to make the difference, I'm 35).

I do think even most well-intentioned men don't realise how much women (as a whole) are disadvantaged by men (as a whole). But I think a lot of women also don't realise this, unless they have children.

The final point you make really rings true to me - I don’t think I realised how big the gap was until I had children.
(I’m in no way saying women without children don’t understand but I’ve noticed it more since then). I’ve

OP posts:
RantyAnty · 08/03/2024 09:06

Thepossibility · 29/02/2024 23:43

I think it's more a case of men thinking that they (the individual) deserve the best and they are definitely number 1 in their own minds. So they behave selfishly and society accepts this.
They treat their partners and families well only for as long as they are happy with them. Even “nice" guys.
They lash out/cheat/whatever because life isn't treating them like the special prince they think they are.
Women are often collateral damage but I think if they were partnered with another man they would still behave selfishly.

True. It's very conditional and transactional for men.

Stop providing services, and they get ugly fast.

cerisepanther73 · 08/03/2024 09:52

@Bex5490

You beat me, to it with your emotionally intelligent insightful 👌 good post.!

I was thinking 🤔 along similar lines...

deragod · 08/03/2024 14:42

bombastix · 08/03/2024 08:17

This is a bit more relevant; women and girls who are victimised by men are suffering and it's this abuse that drives mental illness in them.

www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/08/abuse-is-main-driver-of-mental-ill-health-in-women-and-girls-say-psychiatrists

I don't really think the discussion about appearance and victim mentality helps. It is an illusion of some sort of control against what is very nasty reality for women in the U.K.

I have wrote a long post, but I will try again in shorter and more clear way as this is not an academic dissociation.

Women are 3 times more likely to be diagnosed with PTSD than men - one of very few "psychiatric" disorders that have some objective criteria.
I want to underline that I am not saying that other diagnoses are not real, however there is problem with nosology and evidence based practice in psychiatry - we must be wary of that when discussing studies like the Swedish one.
One of the biggest questions in criminology and critical psychiatry* is: what was first - violence or disorder.
We tend to focus on men who commit violence and the end of the spectrum - murder and physically violent rape as individuals and look for explanations that do not even touch the status quo.
Then we have media and celebrities normalising male violence in form of suicide. We listen costly about poor mental health and suicides.
We never hear that treat of suicide is a first symptom, in some EU countries suicide threat is on a police check list for DA interventions.
When this sort of manipulation doesn't work men kill women and children, if they are not successful they will kill themselves but that also happens in broader social context and has impact on women and children.

Are there male victims of female violence? Well, how we define violence?
There are plenty of men who are depressed and hurting because their IPs withdrawn from serfdom. No more cooking, cleaning, mediocre sex, life admin.
I must to say I really cannot treat claims of male victimisation by women seriously.
How often daughter murders her father? I am asking because male violence against women is broader than just in intimate relationships.
I am following femicides rates from 3 countries: UK, Germany, Poland and sometimes, when I have a good sources, Ukraine.
It is always the same, father, parter, brother, son, neighbour, a random passer by.
Men are not killed by their brothers and work mates because they felt like it at this particular moment.

This whole narrative about only few bad apples and men in constant mental health crisis is just another form of gaslighting women into subordination - don't leave, serve him because he will kill himself, he is not responsible it is ADHD.

And before someone will come to make comments regarding my life:

Yes, I was victimised by a class mate when I was an early teen, today I think he must saw his father being violent at home.
However, overall in my closes circle I have "decent men".
Given that it was my grandfather who worked part - time and was doing school runs, half terms, sick leaves etc., and his brother was stay at home dad for the first few years, and their sons followed the example some may say they are 'more than decent'.
However, they still have many traits and behaviours that are enabled by the patriarchal system. We talk about that and they listen, but it not necessarily mean they change their behaviours. and they are def more pleasant to be around than most men but not being a threat of violence in domestic setting and being a parent is not enough.

As long as we look for countless excuses why men behave how they behave instead of addressing the structural issue it will carry on. generation by generation.

*I am using this term loosely as a term for all movements within and outside institutional psychiatry which are critical about the state of affairs.

Gloriosaford · 08/03/2024 17:37

Men are not killed by their brothers and work mates because they felt like it at this particular moment
That would be partly because men are more likely to fight back (as opposed to freezing) and to fight back successfully.
Overpowering and killing a woman is generally easier to do, and to do without risking injury to yourself.

cerisepanther73 · 08/03/2024 17:44

Typo mistake word feminicide * gender crime
with my ubove 📫 post...

PaperDoIIs · 08/03/2024 21:24

I never judge a man based on how he treats women when they are coddling or praising him. Look closely at how a man reacts when a woman displeases him, stands up to him, or draws a boundary with him, and you will find out who he really is.

Stole this from another thread because it rang so true, and sums it up .

beguilingeyes · 09/03/2024 07:54

I finally got round to watching the Sarah Everard documentary last night and it made me so sad and angry at the same time. Talk about hiding in plain sight. That McDonald's incident. The WhatsApp messages.
We've got no bloody hope have we.

Superlambaanana · 09/03/2024 10:01

PaperDoIIs · 08/03/2024 21:24

I never judge a man based on how he treats women when they are coddling or praising him. Look closely at how a man reacts when a woman displeases him, stands up to him, or draws a boundary with him, and you will find out who he really is.

Stole this from another thread because it rang so true, and sums it up .

Yes this is very good. And because we all know men turn nasty when this happens we tend to avoid doing anything that annoys them, bending over backwards to please them to the extent it has become so ingrained we don't even notice that we are putting up with far too much!! Time men were left to find life a bit uncomfortable because we stop pandering to them. I am ferociously on the side of women and acknowledge it is not our job to change men's behaviour, but I do think we need to stop coddling them.

Gloriosaford · 09/03/2024 12:39

We have to stand up to men from the get-go. Realise that they will dominate and exploit us if they get any opportunity to do so, keep them on a short leash, never let them get in the position where they have any leverage over us.
Any bad behaviour has to be nipped in the bud or they get out of control and cause untold damage.

PaperDoIIs · 09/03/2024 13:21

Gloriosaford · 09/03/2024 12:39

We have to stand up to men from the get-go. Realise that they will dominate and exploit us if they get any opportunity to do so, keep them on a short leash, never let them get in the position where they have any leverage over us.
Any bad behaviour has to be nipped in the bud or they get out of control and cause untold damage.

This sounds good in theory, but frankly unrealistic, unattainable and frankly too much hard work for most women, unless they decide to never be in a relationship, have kids through donors or no kids and work /interact /socialise in female environments only.

Bex5490 · 09/03/2024 16:17

I think one of the most important things we can do is champion other women above men. I’m always more keen to promote women over men as especially in my profession they seem to get ahead so much more easily.

If you look at the ratio of male to female teachers and then the ratio of male to female school leaders it’s so clear that men in education are often promoted over women.

LovelyTheresa · 09/03/2024 16:34

PaperDoIIs · 09/03/2024 13:21

This sounds good in theory, but frankly unrealistic, unattainable and frankly too much hard work for most women, unless they decide to never be in a relationship, have kids through donors or no kids and work /interact /socialise in female environments only.

It is also an extremely unhealthy and frankly bizarre way of looking at the world. If going through life looking for ways that you're being put upon is what counts as feminism these days, you can keep it. I identified as a feminist when I was younger, but I really don't any more. Before anyone says that it is about equal pay for equal work, it really isn't any more. It is about hating men and I can't get on board with that. I'd rather take my chances with the evil patriarchy. If that makes me a 'handmaiden' (or other misogynistic term of choice) then so be it. I'll wager that I'm still happier than any of the bitter moaners on this thread.

5128gap · 09/03/2024 16:39

Gloriosaford · 09/03/2024 12:39

We have to stand up to men from the get-go. Realise that they will dominate and exploit us if they get any opportunity to do so, keep them on a short leash, never let them get in the position where they have any leverage over us.
Any bad behaviour has to be nipped in the bud or they get out of control and cause untold damage.

We need the people who govern us and set and enforce the laws we live by to stand up to men from the get go. To make sure they know their place and stay in line, equal to us, but never above us, and for that to underpin every policy decision. It needs to be perfectly clear from the workplace, to the streets, to the home there will be zero tolerance of even the lowest levels of abusive and nuisance behaviour; and impose the strongest of sanctions when there is. Because if behaviour is made to change, typically attitudes tend to follow.
Obviously while the people in charge are themselves men, this remains a pipe dream, so personally I just carry on, doing all can to support women to move upwards into power positions, by voting for them, and within my limited influence, backing and promoting them. And all of the 'My Nigels' and self identified 'good men' who typically are much better placed to be heard, should be doing the same if they're worthy of the label.

Garlicking · 09/03/2024 20:13

LovelyTheresa · 09/03/2024 16:34

It is also an extremely unhealthy and frankly bizarre way of looking at the world. If going through life looking for ways that you're being put upon is what counts as feminism these days, you can keep it. I identified as a feminist when I was younger, but I really don't any more. Before anyone says that it is about equal pay for equal work, it really isn't any more. It is about hating men and I can't get on board with that. I'd rather take my chances with the evil patriarchy. If that makes me a 'handmaiden' (or other misogynistic term of choice) then so be it. I'll wager that I'm still happier than any of the bitter moaners on this thread.

You crack on, Theresa. If all you ever knew about feminism was equal pay, you haven't understood it - and are slow on the uptake. Pay was covered by legislation in 1970 and 2010.

There are lots of people who prefer to focus on the beauty that emanates from cruelty, closing their eyes and ears to those who suffered for its creation. That's normal but, if nobody looked deeper and changed things, we'd still be building rococo palaces on the bodies of millions.

Have a nice time fluttering your eyelashes at the big men. Just don't waste your fragrant breath on telling those of us who do look and listen to shut the fuck up. We won't.

Justsomethoughts · 09/03/2024 21:06

LovelyTheresa · 09/03/2024 16:34

It is also an extremely unhealthy and frankly bizarre way of looking at the world. If going through life looking for ways that you're being put upon is what counts as feminism these days, you can keep it. I identified as a feminist when I was younger, but I really don't any more. Before anyone says that it is about equal pay for equal work, it really isn't any more. It is about hating men and I can't get on board with that. I'd rather take my chances with the evil patriarchy. If that makes me a 'handmaiden' (or other misogynistic term of choice) then so be it. I'll wager that I'm still happier than any of the bitter moaners on this thread.

Some of your comments are actually quite hateful towards some of the women on this thread. I’m thinking specifically “bitter moaners”, “victim mentality”, “pissing in someone’s well”.
It’s shocking, especially as there has been discussion about very serious topics eg DV, violence and murder of women on this thread. Some PPs have shared their own personal experiences. IMO you have been at best, invalidating and at worst, victim shaming.

OP posts:
stayathomer · 09/03/2024 21:14

I think I’ve only met a few men that seem to hate (notably two that literally seemed to not see women for anything except what they could get, was horrible being even near both!)/ be afraid of women (the very odd garage you go to where the guy doesn’t know how to deal with you very obviously because you’re not a man!!). I think men in general are more similar to women than we give them credit for and we overanalyse where there doesn’t need to be analysis (but we do because we mull things over more). I might be lucky but most men I know are just nice people. I get that different people have different experiences but I feel very sorry for men on mn sometimes, they don’t stand a chance!!!

beguilingeyes · 09/03/2024 21:55

If feminism was only about equal pay they it would still be needed because we're not there yet...but it's so much more.
How do you feel about the fact that you may never get the correct dose of any drug because the default body is a mans? Heart attack symptoms descriptions are those that affect men so women's heart problems often aren't recognised....and on it goes. But we're all just bitter moaners.

KattyBoomBoom95 · 09/03/2024 21:57

I don't think men hate women at all.

It's very easy to point out that men account for most homicides and then use that against all men. However, if we look at 'murderers vs non-murderers' instead it suddenly becomes a fraction of a percent of men instead of all men - because obv you can't blame innocent men for other individual's crimes.

I mean, you wouldn't normally use the actions of 0.01% of a group to characterise them. You wouldn't call a demographic wealthy if over 99.9% of them were poor.

GreenAppleCrumble · 09/03/2024 21:58

I feel very sorry for men on mn sometimes, they don’t stand a chance!!!

I really wouldn’t waste your energy. They’ll be absolutely fine. And you can be sure they aren’t worrying themselves about your feelings. Even the good ones.

KattyBoomBoom95 · 09/03/2024 21:59

And when people preface their posts with 'not all men' it just seems a bit 'I'm not racist but...'

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