To think men just hate women?

[Justsomethoughts]

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that men must despise us. I think the news today about Wayne Couzens has got me pondering… My thoughts as follows:

Ive read so many threads on here about how little men contribute to household work.
Women are expected to do 99% of housework and childcare whilst sucking it up and looking pretty. This percentage doesn’t seem to change much if they also work. God forbid women complain (I refuse to use the word nag, a word only used by men when talking about women!) as they asked for a family and should be grateful they have a husband and children.

We should look visually appealing/maintain our appearance for as long as possible but not too much - that would be ‘asking for it’. If we don’t we will probably be replaced by a younger/more attractive model.

We can’t walk alone at night as we are at risk of harm (by men).

A very large proportion of female homicides are committed by males living with the victim

The list goes on and on. I know these aren’t brand new facts and obviously ‘not all men’ before people come for me but my god it’s so depressing when you think about it.

I've absolutely no issue with women being free to speak about it honestly. It's usually those complaining about male violence that try and shut down any dissenting views IME.

However, if a poster is going to condemn any particular demographic (half the population in this instance) for something that 99.99% of them don't do then they should be prepared to be challenged on their statements. If they're not then a public forum is probably not the best place to post.

This isn't just my view. It's the majority view of women nowadays - well, definitely in this country. Why else would women claim to support equality but not identify as feminist, claiming such reasons as "it's become toxic" and "there is too much man hating"?

The reality also seems to be different to the one most commonly painted. For example, the most common pattern of violence is bi-directional and many studies have found that women are more likely hit their partners (although men more frequently cause serious injury, likely due to their much greater physical strength).

If you look outside of police statistics the figures are very different which is likely due to the fact that men are much less likely to report abuse, no doubt due to toxic masculinity and not wanting to be seen as 'weak'.

For example, the biggest meta study to date on DV analysed 1700 peer reviewed studies and found that women were more likely to perpetrate violence. Another study found that the biggest predictor of a woman experiencing violence is the violence she herself perpetrates. The 32 nation dating violence study also found that for "any physical violence", a rate of 31.2%, of which 68.6% was bidirectional, 9.9% was perpetrated by men only, and 21.4% by women only. For severe assault, a rate of 10.8% was found, of which 54.8% was bidirectional, 15.7% perpetrated by men only, and 29.4% by women only.[57]

This has been discussed loads on here already (I'm pulling the stats from another thread) yet people just seem to ignore the wealth of data and keep banging the same old drum. The reality appears to be very different to what feminists present and the issue is much more complex than 'men are the problem'.

So you're saying women are beating themselves now. And men are oh so lovely. When will it end?

Apologies if I've come across as combative but it's frustrating to always see the same old tropes when we have such a wealth of data showing that the reality is much more complex than usually acknowledged. I'm genuinely posting with good intentions and I do care about this stuff.

However, I also care about men as much as I care about women, not least because the people that have helped me most in my life have been primarily male.

Maybe actually read the statistics.

I just told DH that I wouldn't have sex with him until men stop killing women. He told me to go fuck myself. And thats one of the better ones. Bangs head against wall.

💖 100%

MN full of women hate as usual. I don't know why I bother

It's not just about violence though is it? That's such a reductive argument. It's about all of the minor and major discriminations that still make us less valued and heeded than men.
Any woman who say she isn't a feminist isn't paying attention IMO.

I don’t think you know what ‘ad hominem’ means. If you look back, you’ll see I have given you the reception you deserved on this thread; many women have worked very hard on this thread to explain how the patriarchal system allows and encourages contempt towards women and detailed awful abuse they’ve received. It’s there in black and white. If you have nothing new to say it’s perfectly reasonable for me to suggest you read the thread.

It’s also perfectly reasonable for me to suggest you engage your brain. Far from being an implication that you’re stupid, it’s a suggestion that you could easily see the truth of what is before you if you weren’t hell-bent on being goady. If you’re touchy about being stupid - we’ll, that’s on you.

I don’t think there’s much hope for @LovelyTheresa alas. She complains about people being mean to her, and yet who is the only one in these recent pages (and perhaps the whole thread!) who’s been deleted? 🤔

It feels like when we talk about violence towards women, the argument is that this applies to the minority of men.
But when anyone makes the point that it doesn’t start with physical violence and that there are behaviours happening in the lead up to that (and that these are far more prevalent, albeit difficult to back up with stats) this is labelled victim mentality.

Why else would women claim to support equality but not identify as feminist, claiming such reasons as "it's become toxic" and "there is too much man hating"?

This is an easy one. It’s because the media/popular culture/the patriarchy has done a spectacular number on the word ‘feminism’.

Feminism, as you know, means equal rights for women. It means getting society to view and treat women as full human beings, not support-humans, service-providers or decorations. If a woman rejects this concept, the overwhelmingly most likely reason for this is that the concept had been misrepresented, tainted. Why else would a woman not want those things (assuming she’s of normal intelligence)?

This myth of “man-hating” feminism is just that - utter nonsense. It’s media-generated, patriarchal bullshit.

I think it's totally the other way actually because my experience professionally is that control, abuse and violence towards women and children is very common. I don't think it is unusual at all; particularly in s nuclear family or marriage.

I don't think these matters are taken seriously enough. The law made a few changes around a decade ago to deal with precursor offending (ie what happens before domestic violence). Many other countries have done the same, with coercive control and examples of what that looks like.

The uncomfortable truth is that actually this can cover a lot behaviours displayed by anyone but particularly men in sexual relationships with women. So you see more "abuse".

I disagree with Katy, because the disparity in strength largely means the man has little to fear. In fact when these laws came in, it recognised that abusing men created environments in their own homes where women and children where scared to put up no resistance at all to cruelty, sexual abuse or violence. They had been psychologically hollowed out by what was happening at home and traumatised.

I think the above is much more common than we realised when these laws came in. A decade later and we are seeing the consequences of saying that psychological harm matters and not just physical.

Btw I believe the changes were good. They have saved lives. And I don't think it would have happened without women being in a far better place in terms of money, employment or social status than before. That doesn't mean all men have active hatred of women. But it would not have happened in the U.K. without female politicians, ie Theresa May realising that matters needed to change.

Wow. Nobody has come out to say that on any thread I've been on yet. Before I joined last year, I specifically checked and saw MN had posted "We hope Mumsnet isn't exclusive to mums and indeed we know we have a number of dads who log on and contribute.".

I joined last year to get some advice as my wife was bleeding during pregnancy with our rainbow baby. I thought it would be a place where I'd pick up great parenting tips too.

As it turns out, I thought I had contributed to various discussions and been helpful. But given your lovely comment, and nobody appears to disagree, this will be my last post.

I didn’t pick up on this post. I suspect most people didn’t notice to be honest as it was quite early on in the thread and not really related to the topic.
I don’t agree with it and definitely benefit from hearing about all opinions regardless of whether they come from a mum or dad.

I’m sorry you’ve come across that post. As @Justsomethoughts says, it’s not really representative of the site. I hope you found the site useful when your wife was pregnant.

However… this comment, I think, is enlightening:
Wow. Nobody has come out to say that on any thread I've been on yet.

I think there is a feeling that women want a space of their own to discuss things without men. And the fact that no one has ever come out and said that suggests to me a that women are just, as usual, budging up to accommodate male needs. This is not meant personally. It’s just that, if there were a site whose title implied it was for men, you can bet the first few women who posted would be told to fuck off! In fact, if you look at online behaviour in general, OP’s initial premise is pretty much proved hands down!

Imo men’s entitlement comes from millions of years of evolution. It’s in their blood. Sadly we as women have to ‘train’ it out of them, and they don’t like it. Hence the resentment and anger that is spilling out into hate.

What ? I don’t think that’s true at all. At what stage and in what ways do women “train” what you described as innate behaviours out of men ?

That's a fair point. I've always avoided commenting on the feminism boards or other topics where it feels inappropriate, but I do read them because it's helpful to understand how people feel. I restrict myself to replying on religion, business, and other topics I think I can add value to the discussion.

I don't think the majority of men hate women, but I do think societal norms that boys observe are atrocious, and successive generations of men perpetuate this in ignorance. The sexualised objectification of women in media is a prime example of how boys will grow up finding that normal and acceptable, and may not question it.

Post-Sarah Everard I personally learned a lot about how many women fear for their safety. It had never occurred to me that anybody would find me intimidating so I didn't think twice about my behaviour. Now, I do cross the road at night to avoid approaching a lone woman and so on. That doesn't make me a hero, it's still a sad indictment on society.

Similarly, because I wouldn't dream of speaking over a woman in a meeting any more than a man (because my parents raised me better, I guess?) it didn't occur to me this was a thing. Privilege and ignorance on my part. But nowadays if I spot it, I actively bring the interrupted speaker into the conversation to make her point.

So: ignorance and privilege, but not hatred. Most men I know would be equally mortified to think they perpetuate any bit of it. And there's a clearer expectation on us to call out the minority of misogynists who make me inappropriate comments or 'jokes', or treat their colleagues, staff, partners and fellow citizens poorly.

On the MN issue, I do notice some of my contributions get less engagement so I think the sentiment about men may be shared by others, so I probably will leave the mums to it and find another place.

I'd very much doubt you get less engagement @BookwormDadUK if this thread is anything to go by. You only had to post about your feelings being so hurt (by the first and only post you've ever seen be one poster out of thousands) that you're leaving MN, to have several posters rush to reassure you. Women who say they're leaving almost always get dismissed as 'flouncers'. While you're reflecting on male entitlement, you might pause to question what level of engagement you expect from women on here and why. Because I've never once seen a woman complain that her posts didn't get sufficient attention.

Lots of good posts to digest and reply to, but one issue I encounter with a lot of these threads is that they often go as follows.

"Men hate us. They keep killing us."

"Ok, but it's actually a tiny proportion of men. Like less than 0.01%. You can't tar a whole demographic when 99.99% of them don't do that thing."

"Yes, but it's not just murder. Male violence/DV is endemic."

"OK, but women are pretty violent too. Maybe not so much in fighting each other but the data shows they're pretty level with men in regards to DV. See the metastudy of 1700 peer reviewed studies, the 32 nation dating violence study, and many other studies over the past 25 years like the one with 500,000 respondents."

"Yes, but it's not just violence. We're discriminated in many other ways too."

I actually agree that we have many issues to address (as do men themselves) but it's hard to pin people down to one topic as they keep moving the goalposts.

I used to firmly believe that the vast majority of domestic violence/abuse was perpetrated by men until the thread about a year back where a poster dumped loads of studies. I was sceptical and looked at the links to find they were solid peer reviewed studies undertaken by governments and large organisations and that in fact the majority of data contradicted the commonly espoused opinion on here - it's only really police data that contradicts the bulk of other data and that's almost certainly because it's only going on officially reported violence - we already know men are much less likely to report DV.

If I come across as a bit pedantic it's because it's frustrating to see these studies posted again and again and yet further threads popping up making entirely unsupported claims about half the population. A meta study of 1700 peer reviewed studies shouldn't be ignored, especially when it's one of many big studies, and yet it's brushed aside every single time in favour of continuing the same old rhetoric. I just feel this isn't good enough.

And for what it's worth I personally don't mind the men, the MRA and the women who want to protect men popping up on the threads. They serve a valuable purpose in 'setting them up' for other posters to present the facts, theories and opinions they want to get across. I often think of them like those fake Q&As used to educate and persuade by campaigning candidates 'won't voting for you mean I pay more tax?' 'No, because...' etc. So come one come all I say, everyone has their value to the discussion. Albeit not necessarily their intended one.

This

there are some good posters on mumsnet that I know are men but i think the complaints of no one engaging with posts and no one jumping in to criticise the one poster who said they didn’t think men should post on mumsnet is very telling

do flounce off though, if that’s literally all it takes for you to get upset i really don’t think you are made for mumsnet

lets face it i think lovelytheresahas said some fucking awful things in this thread and a lot of posters have told her so and shes still here, obviously made of sterner stuff

For reference, here's the link to the Partner Abuse State of Knowledge Project, the world’s largest domestic violence research database. The opening page summarises many of the key findings I mentioned. Their tagline is 'Violence has no Gender'.

https://www.dvaa.com.au/the-partner-abuse-state-of-knowledge-project/

It is telling. If I post something that no one engages with I just think, oh well, clearly that didn't resonate with anyone, and no one was particularly interested in that comment. Yet a man who is not engaged with immediately jumps to the conclusion its because of his sex. Never crosses his mind it was merely that no one was sufficiently interested in the content of his post. Which says such a lot about his confidence in the value of his contributions, and his expectation that women should welcome them.