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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is Keir Starmer right?

321 replies

AdamRyan · 28/02/2024 13:31

Today he called the Conservatives "the political wing of the flat earth society" following Liz Truss' comments about the deep state in the US.

I am a big starmer fan, so want to sanity check my opinion, which is that the Conservatives seem to have bought into a lot of conspiracy theories recently, such as "no go" areas in Birmingham, London being "controlled by Islamists", the civil service being run by transactivists as well as Truss' comments.

Or do you think this is a smear and the Conservatives are being reasonable?

If I had a third option I'd also include a "meh - not interested" option for people

Video for people who want to listen to what Starmer said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-68418502?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=65df29c746578322549bdd92%26Watch%3A%20Starmer%20says%20Tories%20are%20%E2%80%98political%20wing%20of%20flat%20earth%20society%E2%80%99%262024-02-28T12%3A52%3A33.349Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:091e6916-4b3d-4198-adef-cf8a7b9e76bb&pinned_post_asset_id=65df29c746578322549bdd92&pinned_post_type=share

YABU - the Conservatives are not getting sucked into conspiracies, this is a smear

YANBU - the Conservatives need a large consignment of tin foil ASAP

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TooBigForMyBoots · 28/02/2024 18:39

Underthinker · 28/02/2024 18:22

Hi not mistaken. I remember May proposing self ID then it was dropped. Now in the UK it is left leaning parties who favour it, chiefly the greens and SNP.
Which is all irrelevant to the general point that on some issues, advocating one side will often be derided as fighting a culture war, but advocating the opposite view on the exact same issue won't be.

It wasn't dropped. The Tory government views on the wording of a Maternity Bill under PM Johnson.
https://debbiehayton.com/2021/03/17/why-does-penny-mordaunt-think-trans-men-are-men/

Under PM Sunak the Tory party appointed the world's first trans MP to the Women's and Equalities Commision. Sunak himself appointed Gillian Keegan to Sec of State for Education. She is a TWAW believer who's unable to define the word girl.

Most of them don't care either way. Penny Mordaunt does care though and it is likely that she will succeed Sunak when he steps down as party leader later this year.😱

Why does Penny Mordaunt think ‘trans men are men’?

It is appalling that the class of people formerly known as women – the sex that gives birth – can no longer always be described by that word. The policy capture by transgender activists has been in…

https://debbiehayton.com/2021/03/17/why-does-penny-mordaunt-think-trans-men-are-men

AdamRyan · 28/02/2024 18:42

Underthinker · 28/02/2024 18:35

@Cornettoninja I know "cultute war" isn't your terminology originally, it's become hugely widespread in political reporting.

I just think the whole concept is inflammatory and polarising. We're not as polarised as the US yet, but lumping huge ranges of views on topics as broad as immigration, gender, Royal family, heritage, and many more into a culture war drives us further in that direction. It's good for a few left and right leaning news outlets but no one else.

Look at this and you start to see why the Conservatives might be more interested in pushing "culture war" issues than other parties.

https://www.johnsmithcentre.com/research/the-four-sides-in-the-uks-culture-wars/

Traditionalists (26%) – Oldest and most heavily male group. Most nostalgic for country’s past and proud of British empire. 97% think political correctness gone too far, and most likely to feel UK has done enough on equal rights for historically marginalised groups. The demographics that define this group are 61% male with 56% aged 55 or older. 59% of this group support the Conservatives with 78% of the group identifying as Leavers. This group is 5% ethnic minority which is lower than the 11% in the sample as a whole.

The four sides in the UK’s “culture wars” - John Smith Centre

The four sides in the UK’s “culture wars” The Policy Institute Kings College London Rebecca Benson and Bobby Duffy Different people hold different views on issues related to what is increasingly described as a UK “culture war”. There are patterns…Read...

https://www.johnsmithcentre.com/research/the-four-sides-in-the-uks-culture-wars

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TooBigForMyBoots · 28/02/2024 18:52

Oh and the Tories have also reduced the cost of getting a GRC to £5 @Underthinker. Yep a crisp fiver or a few coins you could find down the back of the sofa or in your cupholder.😱

MissyB1 · 28/02/2024 19:09

So much populist post truth politics going on at the moment, it’s both depressing and infuriating. They must think we are all as thick as mince.

Underthinker · 28/02/2024 19:26

@TooBigForMyBoots it seems like you're trying to argue that the policy of gender self ID hasnt been dropped and is current Tory party policy? Am I understanding you correctly? If so it's a bit odd that they went to the trouble of using S35 to block the GRR bill.

Underthinker · 28/02/2024 19:37

@AdamRyan I don't think a policy that appeals to an old male voter who thinks political correctness has gone too far is any more a part of the culture war than a policy designed to appeal to a young female voter who thinks political correctness hasn't gone far enough. They could be opposing views on the SAME topic, both capable of having merit and both worthy of debate. To consistently only describe one of these views as part of a culture war is silly. We have a minister for culture. Culture is a valid topic of political discourse. If your party's views on matters of culture don't appeal to the public, get better views or change peoples minds, but don't shut down opposing views with cries of 'culture war.

Vaz66 · 28/02/2024 19:37

Some of the stuff that sounds like far fetched conspiracy theories is actually true.
Trans activists have spent more than 20 years invegeling themselves into positions of power and influence in local and wider Goverment, it’s no coincidence that it happened simultaneously Worldwide.

Every political party is infested with ‘queer theory’, the Tories aren’t immune.
All behind closed doors with no oversight, that’s why we’re in such a mess now, that we’re not as far gone as Canada is down to very determined Women like those on our Feminism board, it’s no surprise that there are constant attacks on MN by TRAs.
Starmer is a vain-glorious coward, he says what he thinks an audience wants to hear, he wants to please everyone, so will be useless as PM.

Dogfisher · 28/02/2024 19:44

A guy who thinks women can have a penis is denying reality just as much as the flat earth society though, so for that reason a bit of a silly comment from him

Absolutely this.

HRTQueen · 28/02/2024 19:46

I would rather see Sunak detail what was so wrong in what LE said and what Anderson said and Truss said and appeared to agree with and for Starmer to spell it out what was so wrong

but both are playing a political game the PM waiting to see how popular these views are and what the backlash is and Starmer similarly waiting as he is treading the Isreal/Gaza issue very carefully and happy for the attention not to be on this

it’s election year it will be games like this up until the election no one actually saying that much in detail but making a lot of claims

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 28/02/2024 19:50

jeaux90 · 28/02/2024 16:07

I don't believe a word that comes out of Starmers mouth. If he will lie about women having a penis and gaslighting us about that he is not worthy of my trust as a woman.

As I say that as a now ex LP member.

Yup. I'm politically homeless.

AdamRyan · 28/02/2024 19:56

Underthinker · 28/02/2024 19:37

@AdamRyan I don't think a policy that appeals to an old male voter who thinks political correctness has gone too far is any more a part of the culture war than a policy designed to appeal to a young female voter who thinks political correctness hasn't gone far enough. They could be opposing views on the SAME topic, both capable of having merit and both worthy of debate. To consistently only describe one of these views as part of a culture war is silly. We have a minister for culture. Culture is a valid topic of political discourse. If your party's views on matters of culture don't appeal to the public, get better views or change peoples minds, but don't shut down opposing views with cries of 'culture war.

You're missing my point. My point is the "traditionalist" voter base is the one that is most likely to vote Conservative and also most likely to defect to reform, so the Conservatives are desperate to keep them.

Labour are not attractive to those voters, don't have a rival thats eroding their voter base and so don't need to exaggerate the "political correctness gone mad" anti-woke agenda in the same way to stay in with a chance of winning.

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TooBigForMyBoots · 28/02/2024 19:57

Underthinker · 28/02/2024 19:26

@TooBigForMyBoots it seems like you're trying to argue that the policy of gender self ID hasnt been dropped and is current Tory party policy? Am I understanding you correctly? If so it's a bit odd that they went to the trouble of using S35 to block the GRR bill.

They blocked the bill because it would have meant UK wide law would be out of kilter. Not because they oppose trans stuff. It was a Constitutional thing that would have applied if Scotland proposed anything else that put it out of kilter with UK wide laws.

VerduraNet · 28/02/2024 19:57

Does anyone these days truly believe its the public that choose the elected officials ?

Woollyewe · 28/02/2024 19:59

no go" areas in Birmingham - i stongly agree these exist
London being "controlled by Islamists" - strongky agree some areas of london are also no go areas.
the civil service being run by transactivists - the civil service is very pro trans. As the mother of a daughter, i find the trans ideology extremely concerning.

I the Conservatives are being reasonable in answer to your question. But i think that they are actually being reasonable and should return the whip to Lee.

Until Starmer can tell me women dont have a penis and Sanwar can confirm the Scottish labour party will stop trying to takeaway womens rights, i cant even begin to think of these people as anything other than sickos.

AdamRyan · 28/02/2024 20:04

HRTQueen · 28/02/2024 19:46

I would rather see Sunak detail what was so wrong in what LE said and what Anderson said and Truss said and appeared to agree with and for Starmer to spell it out what was so wrong

but both are playing a political game the PM waiting to see how popular these views are and what the backlash is and Starmer similarly waiting as he is treading the Isreal/Gaza issue very carefully and happy for the attention not to be on this

it’s election year it will be games like this up until the election no one actually saying that much in detail but making a lot of claims

I don't think anyone should have to spell out in detail why racism is wrong.

To be honest it's ridiculous a politician can say "Islamists are running London" and it be given any kind of credibility at all.

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AdamRyan · 28/02/2024 20:09

Woollyewe · 28/02/2024 19:59

no go" areas in Birmingham - i stongly agree these exist
London being "controlled by Islamists" - strongky agree some areas of london are also no go areas.
the civil service being run by transactivists - the civil service is very pro trans. As the mother of a daughter, i find the trans ideology extremely concerning.

I the Conservatives are being reasonable in answer to your question. But i think that they are actually being reasonable and should return the whip to Lee.

Until Starmer can tell me women dont have a penis and Sanwar can confirm the Scottish labour party will stop trying to takeaway womens rights, i cant even begin to think of these people as anything other than sickos.

What makes you think parts of London and Birmingham are no go areas?

And what makes you think the civil service is pro trans?

Half a million people work for the civil service. It's not the borg. They aren't all lefties, transactivists or anything else. Some of them are even gender critical and right wing!!

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AdamRyan · 28/02/2024 20:14

It's a bit odd when a legal fact is being presented as a conspiracy theory Confused

anyway let's not get derailed onto "I'm voting conservative - at least they know what a woman is".

This thread is about whether the Conservatives are being smeared by the insinuation they are the political wing of the flat earth society.

I think they are, because London is not run by Islamists and we don't need a big bazooka to protect us from Lefties. We also don't need to follow Rees-Moggs example if we are white, and have 6 babies to protect our culture.

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VerduraNet · 28/02/2024 20:18

Books on the deep state:

"The Deep State: The Fall of the Constitution and the Rise of a Shadow Government" by Mike Lofgren - Lofgren, a former congressional staffer, provides an insider's perspective on the workings of what he perceives as the deep state within the U.S. government.

"National Security and Double Government" by Michael J. Glennon - Glennon argues that a "double government" exists in the United States, where a network of security and intelligence agencies operates largely independently of elected officials, shaping and implementing national security policies.

"The Secret Team: The CIA and Its Allies in Control of the United States and the World" by L. Fletcher Prouty - Prouty, a former U.S. Air Force officer, offers insights into the alleged influence of intelligence agencies like the CIA on American politics and foreign policy.

"The Brothers: John Foster Dulles, Allen Dulles, and Their Secret World War" by Stephen Kinzer - This book examines the roles of the Dulles brothers, who held influential positions in the U.S. government and intelligence community during the Cold War, and their alleged involvement in shaping U.S. foreign policy.

"The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government" by David Talbot - Talbot explores the life and career of Allen Dulles, the longest-serving director of the CIA, and examines his impact on American foreign policy and the intelligence community.

Dogfisher · 28/02/2024 20:19

We also don't need to follow Rees-Moggs example if we are white, and have 6 babies to protect our culture

Rather more to do with the fact that he and his family are Catholics, no?

Seymour5 · 28/02/2024 20:19

Sir David Amess was an MP. Murdered in the name of Islam. For what?

I’m old, white, but female. I bought into all the equalities education I was offered in the public sector in the 80s and 90s and was happy to see widening acceptance of so much that was considered bad (or illegal if you were gay)in my young days. I worked in very diverse teams, and appreciated the different experiences and knowledge that brought.

I now worry for my grandchildren.

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AdamRyan · 28/02/2024 20:23

Dogfisher · 28/02/2024 20:19

We also don't need to follow Rees-Moggs example if we are white, and have 6 babies to protect our culture

Rather more to do with the fact that he and his family are Catholics, no?

Edited

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2023-07-28/jacob-rees-mogg-urges-people-to-have-more-kids-to-tackle-climate-change

"I've done my bit by having six, now you do yours"

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Dogfisher · 28/02/2024 20:25

Where does he say that he has 6 kids to 'protect our culture'?

AdamRyan · 28/02/2024 20:26

Seymour5 · 28/02/2024 20:19

Sir David Amess was an MP. Murdered in the name of Islam. For what?

I’m old, white, but female. I bought into all the equalities education I was offered in the public sector in the 80s and 90s and was happy to see widening acceptance of so much that was considered bad (or illegal if you were gay)in my young days. I worked in very diverse teams, and appreciated the different experiences and knowledge that brought.

I now worry for my grandchildren.

Jo Cox was murdered by a right wing extremist.
3 women a day are murdered by men.

What is it about "diversity" that makes you particularly worry for your grandchildren?

I mean WW3 and climate change I understand. People from different backgrounds, not so much

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