Is Keir Starmer right?

[AdamRyan]

Today he called the Conservatives "the political wing of the flat earth society" following Liz Truss' comments about the deep state in the US.

I am a big starmer fan, so want to sanity check my opinion, which is that the Conservatives seem to have bought into a lot of conspiracy theories recently, such as "no go" areas in Birmingham, London being "controlled by Islamists", the civil service being run by transactivists as well as Truss' comments.

Or do you think this is a smear and the Conservatives are being reasonable?

If I had a third option I'd also include a "meh - not interested" option for people

Video for people who want to listen to what Starmer said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-68418502?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=65df29c746578322549bdd92%26Watch%3A%20Starmer%20says%20Tories%20are%20%E2%80%98political%20wing%20of%20flat%20earth%20society%E2%80%99%262024-02-28T12%3A52%3A33.349Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:091e6916-4b3d-4198-adef-cf8a7b9e76bb&pinned_post_asset_id=65df29c746578322549bdd92&pinned_post_type=share

YABU - the Conservatives are not getting sucked into conspiracies, this is a smear

YANBU - the Conservatives need a large consignment of tin foil ASAP

Yanbu. The Conservative Party has quietly turned into the BNP. Shameful. And dangerous.

considering how much the general public actually know and understand about our political system, then id hope the parties are running the country to improve and make the country better overall

The tories are primarily interested in getting and keeping power. In the last fourteen years they have attacked the EU, the ECHR, the ECJ, the judiciary, the civil service, local councils, the Electoral Commission, the left-wing economic establishment (sic), the devolved nations, ULEZ (despite it being introduced by Johnson and promulgated by Shapps), the RNLI, the National Trust, the RSPB, Islamists, 'green crap', and the right to protest. They constantly brief against anyone who might defend workers, consumers, or the environment against the needs of their client base. And yet all our ills are being caused by the 'deep state' run by a fiendish liberal elite. Somebody please make it make sense!

Your first sentence is the explanation imo!

Would this be the same Keir Starmer who thinks women have penises. He is hardly in a place to lecture people about knowing science.

He hasn’t lectured anyone about knowing about science, has he?

An example of spectacularly missing the point.

What was the point then?

So you say. Did you actually read the OP and take on board what the thread is about?

Alcyoneus, Starmer has been very clear that woman = adult human female. He was referring to males with a GRC who have changed legal sex and therefore need to be referred to as women in some contexts. So he is correct when he 99.99% of women don't have penises. The 0.01% he's referring to are males in a legal context where they are called women.

There is no science involved in the legal definition of "woman", so its not evidence that he doesn't "know science".

He also didn't make the law, and hasn't been in a position to change the law, so its a bit harsh to criticise him for accurately being able to state the law. He is a lawyer after all.

There's about 5 billion threads about how great Sunak is at identifying penises so maybe go and add to one of those. It's not relevant to a debate about whether the Conservatives promote conspiracy theories.

@AdamRyan here are a few examples of UK Conservative politicians being accused of promoting conspiracy theories:

Brexit Campaign: During the Brexit campaign, some Conservative politicians and campaigners suggested that the European Union was controlled by an unelected elite, often referred to as "Brussels bureaucrats" or "EU globalists." While not explicitly labelling it a conspiracy theory, this rhetoric played into anti-establishment sentiments and fuelled suspicions of secretive control.

COVID-19 Misinformation: Throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, there were instances where Conservative politicians were criticized for spreading misinformation or downplaying the severity of the virus. This included claims that the pandemic was exaggerated for political purposes or that measures such as lockdowns were part of a larger conspiracy to infringe on individual freedoms.

Vaccine Misinformation: Some Conservative lawmakers and media personalities have been accused of promoting misinformation about vaccines, suggesting unfounded links between vaccinations and various health concerns or implying that vaccines are part of a larger conspiracy to control or harm the population.

Deep State Allegations: Similar to trends in other countries, there have been instances where UK Conservative politicians have made claims about the existence of a "deep state" within government institutions. This narrative suggests that unelected bureaucrats or entrenched interests are working against the interests of the people, echoing conspiracy theories about shadowy forces controlling the government.

While these examples do not encompass the entirety of the UK Conservative party, they illustrate instances where certain rhetoric or actions by Conservative politicians have been criticized for aligning with or perpetuating conspiracy theories.

Re Liz Truss's deep state comments, I expect theres an element of truth to them. I would expect the civil service to act to mitigate the decisions of a newly appointed PM who was acting recklessly.

I seem to remember that Andrew Bridgen was relieved of the Whip for expressing anti vaxx conspiracy theories.

Thank you. I am also concerned about "dog whistles" to other prevalent conspiracy theories
E.g. their communications about 15 minute cities was tailored towards Great Reset" conspiracy theorists https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-tory-party-rishi-sunak-conservatives-think-theyre-on-to-a-winner-by-raging-against-15-minute-cities/

Their communications about "Invasions" on "small boats" ties into Replacement Theory conspiracy

There are more but I can't think of them all.

Its cynical and irresponsible of them.

Indeed, if these communications are strategically crafted to resonate with conspiracy theorists or exploit existing fears and prejudices, it can be seen as cynical and irresponsible. Political leaders have a responsibility to engage in honest, evidence-based discourse and avoid language that may inflame tensions or contribute to the spread of harmful conspiracy theories.

Ooh cross post - that's in that article too sooty

Doesn’t matter what a load of dodgy posters with agendas think on MN. See how the ‘KS doesn’t know what a woman is’ keeps getting dragged up despite having nothing to do with the question in the OP ? It’s all they’ve got and clearly Sunak has never met or known a poor person either.
Vast majority of the country thinks the tories are batshit and out of touch. Decent minded conservatives are refusing to vote for them hence repeatedly losing by elections in formerly true blue constituencies. Whether it be because of sexual assault cases, defrauding the taxpayer, lying or spreading hateful conspiracy theories this new incarnation of the CP is surely a busted flush and anyone with a moral compass will be ditching them.

I’m in Wales and I’m always torn about Plaid. They have lots to commend them but ultimately can never have any Westminster influence.

Until very recently, the legal definition of woman was based on science. Until very recently.

I am no conservative. I'm a left wing feminist. However I think Starmer has an absolutely fucking hide suggesting conservatives would believe in flat earth. You know what, they probably do, knowing what conservatives are like. But Starmer is the last person who should talk about flat earth. If you believe women have penises (legal or in physical fact), you're a science-denier. And more likely to be a flat-earther than anyone. I bet he'll regret popping his head up on this. He should have kept his mouth shut, given how anti-science he is. Pot calling the kettle black, indeed.

In your first sentence, you seem to acknowledge that the legal definition of a woman includes males with a GRC - then you say anyone who acknowledges the current state of the law is a science denier?

I don't acknowledge that the current law abides by science, that's correct. A male cannot turn into a female. No matter what the law says. The law is anti-science.

Quite right. Critics of the government were [rightly IMO] furious when Tories passed a law declaring Rwanda was a 'safe country' in order to make deportations there easier. Passing a law doesn't override reality.

Furthermore when you say that
Starmer was referring to GRC holders with a legal status of women, his words seem to contradict that.

According to this report, he said 99.9% of women don't have a penis but a small number of people identify as a different gender. He didnt say a small number of people have legally changed gender. This implies to me that he sees merely identifying as one as sufficient to be deemed a woman.

news.sky.com/story/keir-starmer-says-99-9-of-women-havent-got-a-penis-as-he-faces-questions-over-trans-rights-12848438

Every bloody thread turns into this. You’ve got Bravemann suggesting that extremist Muslims rule the UK and Truss saying trans folk run the civil service. Proper incendiary rabble rousing that could lead to tensions in the real world, contribute to real life physical attacks on real life people and supposed left wing feminists are essentially cheering them on in their culture war. Disgusting.

Not a fan of the Tory party and would never vote for them but considering the actual shitshow that is the current Labour party, what Starmer said is very ironic. He needs to do some introspection.