Do career women get more kudos than part-timers/sahms?

[Mcemmabell]

I don't know if it's just my experience, but I feel like I hear a rhetoric day to day where the women I know who are very career focused (demanding full time work, considered "high flying") get kudos and praise from other women. I've recently heard relatives and friends talking with admiration about how dedicated and hard working women in these positions are. But women who work part time or are sahms, I don't hear them getting any praise for the hours they put into childcare and keeping house. Or the sacrifices they make for their children.

Is this just part of the sexist discourse that diminishes the value of any traditional female activity? I would love to hear someone say "Oh, Jean works so hard to take care of her kids." But I never do.

Note: I take the feminist attitude that women should be supported to do whichever of these they want. No one is better than anyone else because they work full time out of the house or because they take care of their kids full time in the house.

Anyway, am I imagining things or is looking after your own children (as a mother) still an undervalued activity that gets very little recognition from the outside world?

OK. So why do you think you undervalue yourself? Presumably you feel that you are contributing to your family in a meaningful way? And hopefully your partner/spouse agrees? You shouldn't need any validation from other people to believe that what you're doing is worthwhile, so ultimately, I think it comes down to the question of whether you are satisfied with how your life has panned out.

Who exactly is expecting you to fill that "default carer" role? Is it your partner/spouse? Do you actually want to be the "default carer"? If you're happy with it, then it's absolutely fine, but if you feel that you've unwillingly ended up in that role because of outdated sexist stereotypes, then maybe it's time to challenge those stereotypes.

I'm not sure whether the posters who are responding 'yes of course' are saying that women get more kudos if they have a career - or whether it's that looking after children that's an undervalued activity.

I certainly don't think any more of a person because of their job/career .

I was always proud of myself having created a brilliant work-life balance.

I've conflated nothing. I literally state that it isn't about working or not. My point was that raising a child properly requires lots of time, effort and isn't easy. Pretending otherwise does all parents a disservice and allows those who are dragging up their kids to feel like they are doing an adequate job.

Interesting to see this thread alongside one from a poster who used to be a lawyer and is 'humiliated' to answer that she's now a SAHP with a PT Etsy shop when people ask her if she works .

'The vast majority of adults are capable of domestic work and childcare'

I work in a field where the adults do not know how to parent. I think it is a sad reality that anyone can become a parent, but only some of them will do so with the appropriate skill set and care. Now obviously it's extremely complex with why this is, but if the government (and by extension society) valued caring more, we wouldn't have as much ill health and delinquency as we do now. I have seen the amount of vulnerable families dramatically increase. At the heart of this, is because of poor investment to support people.

To be clear, in terms of 'value' this would be government funded places for families to go (such as sure start which was later scrapped), appropriate childcare, better maternal care etc. Lots of predominantly women are forced back into work because of spiralling costs, how about providing a salary for women to stay at home. The research shows the positive impact of this, short and long term. I think there's a country that already does this?

What research?

I agree that some people don't know how to parent effectively. I fail to see how paying them to stay at home is going to help? Arguably, the children of such parents are likely to be much better off in professional childcare.

verotutkimus.fi/en/finnish-child-home-care-allowance-has-negative-impacts-on-mothers-careers-and-on-child-outcomes/

Interesting study - I think it was Finland who had the generous stay at home payment. However studies are revealing negative outcomes for mum and child. Anyone know more info about this?

A lot of the kudos relating to anyone's career come from promotions/pay rises/job changes - things people have studied or worked hard to achieve. There's a notable achievement beyond the usual day to day work.
I have heard people complaining about it the other way - complaining that pregnant women get congratulated and fussed over when they're going off on maternity leave and it boils down to the same thing, a notable achievement/event to celebrate.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

I won't post here, but a quick Google search for the benefits on the kids living in a home with a sahm are plentiful, but as linked below, the finish story doesn't support this?

I think part timers are the most praised but i know that their life isn't automatically great and that they still get comment but its not as much as Sahm primarly or career women secondarily. This is from my experience as having been all three (not just mat leave sahm) and from observing and hearing from other women.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves life's circumstances meant I became the default parent. I am also estranged from my family with significant childhood trauma, which I know all has contributed to my life decisions including my sense of self worth.

But there will be just as many studies that demonstrate that children do better with two working parents. As you yourself have already demonstrated with the Finnish study.

I don't think the research will provide a definitive view on this - you can easily find studies to support either point of view. My own gut feeling, from what I've observed, is that it makes no difference either way. Loving, happy and effective parents typically produce better outcomes for children, whether they work or not.

www.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/186210/vatt-working-papers-151-paying-moms-to-stay-home--short-and-long-run-effects-on-parents-and-children.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Here's the Finnish research paper

As they should ? Everyone that achieves a good career should be given kudus IMo , specially mums as it’s so much harder .
As much as I appreciate SAHM , working mums do everything they do plus work full time on top . Unless you are talking about the very minority who sends their kids to boarding school or has live in help or a partner that stays home and does the child care part .
Most full time mums still do housework , childcare , and pretty much in charge of most responsibilities

I'm sorry to hear that, @Sparklybutold. Hopefully you have been able to break the cycle with your own dc, and in time, you might start to value what you have managed to achieve after what was obviously a difficult start in life.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

I think you're right. A happy and loving home will always trump any variation of the family structure.

It is undoubtedly a complex issue. I think with the col crisis now and less money impacting everyone, this is undermining home stability. Thereby impacting child overall health. As women tend to be the default parent, the col crisis impacts there lives more in terms of less job opportunities which pay significantly less.

Those who prioritise their children’s development, teach boundaries and manners etc. (whether they are working parents or not) should be applauded.

No, sorry. This is ridiculous because raising a child to become a civilised and productive member of society is actually the least we should expect from parents.

But then, I'm childfree, no fucker has ever given me kudos for anything. Apparently I'm not worthy of celebrating my success because apparently it was easy for me as I didn't have kids. Nah, bollocks to that.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

🌺

I have done a lot of work to break the cycle. I know that my view on this topic is shaped by own internal monologue. Growing up my worth was measured by how a cared for others. My mum died when I was 2, as the youngest and only girl. I became the surrogate wife and mum from a very young age. I was 'lovingly' called cinders.

I think "part time" covers a very wide range. Technically I work "part time" at 32 hours a week. But I work every day and do all school runs and kids clubs etc, working around them. So no lunch breaks for example and early morning / evenings to catch up.
It's quite different to someone who for example works 1 morning a week.

Of course, the CoL crisis is impacting negatively on families in many different ways.

I do think it's time that we started pushing back harder though on this idea that women are expected to be the "default parent". Men are perfectly capable of stepping up and doing their fair share if they want to. The trouble is, a lot of them don't seem to feel that they should have to, and many women seem to either agree with this or at least be resigned to it. I honestly don't understand why.

kudos from who? mumsnetters? 😂

Im a grown assed woman. i work part time (and my children are at secondary school gasp!). Bloody love the balance. And have never ever noticed even a whiff of feeling inferior against friends and family females working full time. Tbh i often listen to the lives of friends with full time career and feel my heart rate increasing listening to how frantic it all sounds!

Tryingmybestadhd · Today 15:10

As they should ? Everyone that achieves a good career should be given kudus IMo , specially mums as it’s so much harder .
As much as I appreciate SAHM , working mums do everything they do plus work full time on top . Unless you are talking about the very minority who sends their kids to boarding school or has live in help or a partner that stays home and does the child care part .
Most full time mums still do housework , childcare , and pretty much in charge of most responsibilities

Not true unless your child is school age though.
I used to be a SAHM to twins until they started school BC childcare would have cost more than my wages. I can honestly say working (almost) full time with kids at school is easier (for me) than being at home with 2 toddlers.
Obviously you're not doing the same as the parent at home with the kids if you're not there.

I think full time high flying women get more praise the way that full time dads get "awed" at in th playground. Men don't get a pay on the back for working like women don't get it for being a SAHM.

It's normal to get kudos for doing something that's regarded as an achievement, or as something not many people would be capable of doing. Looking after your own child and doing the housework don't fall into that category, but neither does the mere fact of having a job.

I think the problem is not the amount of kudos, but the division of domestic labour between men and women, and the fact that it's still unusual for men to ever be the default parent. We shouldn't need to go on the defensive by painting basic parenting and household tasks as impressive achievements or high-level jobs in order to justify being part time or SAHM.

I'm really sorry that that happened to you, and can see how that background might shape your thinking on this.

Do you have daughters? If so, think about what you want for their futures. Do you want them to be the default carers or do you want them to have a balanced relationship in which all responsibilities are shared equally and in which they have opportunities to pursue their own career ambitions?

And if you have sons, do you want them to be the carrying the burden of being solely responsible for supporting their families, or do you want them to have equal opportunities to bond with and care for their children?

Are you currently modelling the division of labour that you would want for your own dc? If so, that's great. If you would want something different for them, think about how you can tweak your current situation to get closer to that.