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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel sorry for Shamima Begum?

1000 replies

EWAS · 23/02/2024 12:56

I do, I’m afraid. I think she should be able to come home. She was 15! Have any men been stripped of their citizenship that we know about?

OP posts:
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EasternStandard · 23/02/2024 13:47

CranfordScones · 23/02/2024 13:44

I don't feel sorry for her. In many ways she's the architect of her own misfortunes.

However, my unfashionable opinion is that she is a product of the UK and she should be our 'problem' to deal with.

As usual, the debate gets sidetracked by those with a tedious bourgeois obsession about whether 'they' are using 'our' money to pay for the lawyers and due process to which she is clearly entitled.

I asked this, plus how many more appeals. More interest in the legal process

I haven’t followed her at all, others listen to podcasts, documentaries or whatever it’s all passed me by

Chumbawambs · 23/02/2024 13:48

Extracted from previous court documents for those that cannot be bothered to inform themselves, she is a threat plain and simple.

"Ms Begum was born in the United Kingdom in 1999 and possessed both United Kingdom and Bangladeshi citizenship. She was said to have travelled to Syria in February 2015, when she was 15 years old, and aligned with ISIL (the so-called Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant). Although she travelled there as a minor, she had remained in ISIL-controlled territory since turning 18. Media reports indicated that, following her arrival in the ISIL-controlled city of Raqqa, she had applied to marry an ISIL fighter.
The Security Service considered that any individual assessed to have travelled to Syria and to have aligned with ISIL posed a threat to national security. It was noted that individuals, such as Ms Begum, who were radicalised as minors might be considered victims. That did not, however, change the threat which the Security Service assessed Ms Begum as posing to the United Kingdom. It did not justify putting the United Kingdom’s national security at risk by not depriving her of her citizenship.

Security Service included a detailed statement dated April 2017 on the threat to national security from UK-linked individuals who had travelled to ISIL-controlled territory to align with ISIL. It explained that, following ISIL’s declaration of a caliphate in June 2014, it had encouraged individuals to travel to Syria and Iraq to align with the group on a permanent basis. The Security Service’s assessment was that anyone who had travelled voluntarily to ISIL-controlled territory to align with ISIL since the declaration of the caliphate was aware of the ideology and aims of ISIL and the attacks and atrocities that it had carried out. As such, they were assessed to have made a deliberate decision to align themselves with the group and its ideology in support of its terrorism-related activity. The primary role for most women who travelled to join the group was as wives of fighters and mothers of their children, raising the next generation of fighters and citizens of the caliphate. Anyone who travelled to ISIL-controlled territory, even to fill non-combatant roles, was actively supporting a terrorist organisation that was engaged in mass murder and grave human rights abuses, with an agenda to intimidate and attack governments and citizens globally.

The Security Service advised that the threat from individuals who returned to the United Kingdom from ISIL-controlled territory could manifest itself in a number of ways: (1) involvement in ISIL-directed attack planning, (2) involvement in ISIL enabled attacks, (3) radicalising and recruiting UK-based associates, (4) providing support to ISIL operatives, and (5) posing a latent threat to the United Kingdom.
In relation to the first of these possibilities, the Security Service’s assessment was that the United Kingdom was a priority target for ISIL terrorist activity. In relation to the second possibility, the statement noted that ISIL encouraged women to carry out attacks. Any individual, male or female, who returned to the United Kingdom having spent a prolonged period of time in ISIL-controlled territory was likely to have developed the capability to carry out an attack."

RuinsLover · 23/02/2024 13:48

greengreengrass25 · 23/02/2024 13:38

Could she go to Holland as his widow

He’s not dead, he’s in jail in Syria I think.

blankittyblank · 23/02/2024 13:48

hobbledyhoy · 23/02/2024 13:43

I haven't listened to the podcast but I think she didn't do herself any favours when she was first interviewed and essentially said she was not remorseful of her actions.

Suddenly, after a backlash to her attitude by the public there appeared to be a PR spin, she was 'westernised' and put in a baseball cap and told to outwardly show contrition.

I can understand young people get radicalised and make truly terrible decisions without realising the consequences and to some extent she's being made an example of. But I think it's the apparent lack of authenticity that makes people feel she's not truly remorseful and so public opinion will continue to be against her.

There's a few things at play re that interview.
Firstly, shed only just an arrive at the camp and was being watched by Isis members. She had to be very careful with what she said.
Secondly, she was 9 months pregnant and had been walking for about 3 days. She was exhausted and corralled by journalists as soon as she arrived. She was confused and didn't know what she was and wasn't allowed to say.
I agree that interview was the nail in her coffin, but it's not as simple as he having no remorse.

ViaBlue · 23/02/2024 13:48

LankyCranky32 · 23/02/2024 13:06

I always find it amazing because if I was 15 ad a blonde white English teenager who hanged out a lot with different people from different cultures and had left the country in the way she did there would have been an instant search to find me, and I would have been classed as kidnapped from grooming.

Riiight...
Like those 12, 13, 14 year old white British girls who just wanted to hang out with those gangs full of Asian men..
In Rotheram, Rochdale, Newcastle, Oxford, Bristol, Keighley etc....

Jasmin1971 · 23/02/2024 13:48

Her complete lack of remorse when interviewed in the Syrian refugee camp suggests she is a stupid, arrogant, and thoroughly nasty radicalised person. I don't feel sorry for her for what she did. I do feel sorry for her dead babies.

She is, however our, rubbish. They should allow her to come home. But not as a free citizen. She should be jailed on arrival. Just MHO.

DragonFly98 · 23/02/2024 13:49

Yes she was a groomed child and regardless of her crimes she is British.

HelenDamnation1 · 23/02/2024 13:50

EWAS · 23/02/2024 13:21

I just feel like young, brown, female is the easiest person to make an example of. I really feel for her, her babies and her family, whilst recognising the horror of ISIS and the stupidity of her decisions.

I do get your point, but frankly, being white did nothing to help the groomed girls in Rotherham.
Although I agree white privilege does prevail in many cases, I don't think it does in the case of Shamima.

blankittyblank · 23/02/2024 13:51

Jasmin1971 · 23/02/2024 13:48

Her complete lack of remorse when interviewed in the Syrian refugee camp suggests she is a stupid, arrogant, and thoroughly nasty radicalised person. I don't feel sorry for her for what she did. I do feel sorry for her dead babies.

She is, however our, rubbish. They should allow her to come home. But not as a free citizen. She should be jailed on arrival. Just MHO.

See my comment above . There's a few reasons for her behaviour in that interview. It's not as simple as her having no remorse.

EWAS · 23/02/2024 13:51

blankittyblank · 23/02/2024 13:42

I listened to the podcast on bbc sounds about her, and I reckon she's probably on the autism spectrum. She said at school she never fit it, didn't know how to befriend people, only went with the other girls as she wanted somewhere she felt like she belonged. And how cold she often appears in interviews, I think it's all part of it.
That aside I feel awful for her. She was blatantly groomed. And her kids! Her eldest was a toddler when she died and she starved to death. I can't even image the trauma she's experienced. I'm ashamed of our nation for not having any empathy.

I too wondered if she was autistic. Her manner and history suggest it.

OP posts:
shreknjumps · 23/02/2024 13:51

Not getting my sympathy

Bumbers · 23/02/2024 13:51

I agree so much. She was 15. And then has suffered the death (slowly, by starvation) of her children. She was a child and has been through hell. Even if not, even if she is a threat - she is our responsibility as a nation.

FuzzyManul · 23/02/2024 13:53

RuinsLover · 23/02/2024 13:48

He’s not dead, he’s in jail in Syria I think.

Correct.

Katharineblum · 23/02/2024 13:54

From what I’ve read her family were Islamic fundamentalists too so I wouldn’t be surprised if her beliefs were influenced from a very early age but that’s a different story.
I believe that today’s judgement is about whether the government acted within the law not a moral judgement on whether it was the right thing to do. I think she’s our responsibility tbh. We enabled her to be groomed because of our lax handling of Islamic extremism in this country. She was a UK citizen so bring her back, hold a fair trial and act on that. Problem is that there are undoubtedly not many witnesses to what she did and it will be difficult to ascertain her guilt or innocence.

Spencer0220 · 23/02/2024 13:55

I have a question:

If, indeed, it was possible to strip her of uk citizenship, how the hell did Bangladesh 🇧🇩 manage to strip her of citizenship?

Or don't they recognise international law?

OttolenghiSimple · 23/02/2024 13:57

She should be allowed back to the UK- she’s our problem, and if she’s a risk then frankly I’d rather she were in a British prison than anywhere else.

MyGooseisTotallyLoose · 23/02/2024 14:00

BeretInParis · 23/02/2024 13:17

She made a bad decision when young but then kept doing so. She is quoted as liking Isis beheading videos. She is reported to have sewn people into suicide vests, meaning they couldn't change their minds before they exploded all over the place, taking others with them. No sympathy from me. Our country's safety is more important. That is the priority, not some Isis bride who doesn't like the consequences of her terrorist-sympathising actions.

This, why is this being so brushed over?

Neriah · 23/02/2024 14:00

Precipice · 23/02/2024 13:04

We know Jack Letts was stripped of his UK citizenship, but that's a different case. He actually held Canadian citizenship all his life and continues to be a Canadian citizen. (Canada wasn't happy about the UK making Letts their sole responsibility either.) Begum has become stateless, which should not be permitted under international law.

Canada aren't in a position to complain. Given that it was a Canadian secret agent who smuggled her and many others into Syria from Turkey. Last time I looked Canada was an ally, a member of the UN - and human trafficking is punishable up to a life sentence in Canada. But they were happy to allow someone working for them to traffick underage children who were already subject to an international search into Syria. And please don't tell me that British intelligence and the UK government didn't know about this.

The people who trafficked her were "on our side". Probably with the knowledge of the UK. And at a point when she was definitely a child.

There's so much more to how this child got to Syria than is being admitted.

Nightjaaard · 23/02/2024 14:01

All good and well saying she is our problem bring her back and put her in jail. How many millions of pounds of tax payers money are you willing to spend on legal fees to get her out of jail ext. from blood sucking layers once she's back in the UK.

There is me thinking most people were wanting extra funding for NHS and Schools, not people like this. 🤔

pokebowls · 23/02/2024 14:01

LankyCranky32 · 23/02/2024 13:06

I always find it amazing because if I was 15 ad a blonde white English teenager who hanged out a lot with different people from different cultures and had left the country in the way she did there would have been an instant search to find me, and I would have been classed as kidnapped from grooming.

100%

CombatLingerie · 23/02/2024 14:02

@Jasmin1971 I have just said similar on another thread. SB is vile and knew exactly what she was doing. I don’t believe she has shown any remorse. She is though the UK’s responsibility and should be incarcerated here. It’s likely however she will stay where she is forever.

RhubarbGingerJam · 23/02/2024 14:03

Begum has become stateless, which should not be permitted under international law

This .

I also don't get why we haven't been more proactive in getting the innocent British (or have rights to citizenship) children born into these messes back.

It 's been hinted by government officials she was more involved in vague really bad things but really we should have her back and deal with that ether by courts or heavily monitoring her - as I think we have with others.

Growlybear83 · 23/02/2024 14:03

I can never understand why people have an ounce of sympathy for Shamima Begum. She was 15 when she left the UK and married an ISIS fighter, and at that age she would have been well aware of what she was doing, and now has to pay the consequences of how she behaved in Syria. Most 15 year olds aren't innocent little children, and are fully capable of understanding their actions - not all girls of that age are obsessed with make up and pouting on Tik Tock, and are very much politically aware. When I was 15 I understood about British and world politics, and many girls in my class at school were members of the Young Socialists or Young Conservatives and political issues and ideologies were debated regularly. Shamima Begum wasn't the only person to join ISIS who was stripped of their British nationality, and I never seem to hear people trying to find excuses for the other British citizens who joined ISIS, but it seems that because she is a female, that entitles her to sympathy.

Westwindworries · 23/02/2024 14:04

Spencer0220 · 23/02/2024 13:55

I have a question:

If, indeed, it was possible to strip her of uk citizenship, how the hell did Bangladesh 🇧🇩 manage to strip her of citizenship?

Or don't they recognise international law?

As I understand it, she didn't have full Bangladeshi citizenship, but "dependent child" citizenship through her parents. Once she reached 18 she ceased to be a "dependent child" and the citizenship expired.

pokebowls · 23/02/2024 14:04

HelloMiss · 23/02/2024 13:09

@LankyCranky32

How stupid

You missed out the 'isis' part. You know, terror related bit

No comparison at all there

If a white British girl of 15 was groomed by ISIS since she was 14 and went out there, the country would have seen it for what it was. Grooming and abduction. There you go. Better?

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