To have a litter of puppies?

[BeeKeeping]

I'm fully aware that this will be controversial - but hear me out..

It's not always possible to rescue a dog. When we were looking we had a 1y0 and a 3yo, chickens, 3 cats and (rightly) no rescue would entertain us. Lots of families have young children/ other pets and need a puppy in order to ensure that they have the correct exposure to all of these things.

I think in the past it was common for 'back yard' breeders, folks with good bitches to have a litter and sell these for much less than the current pedigree prices. Or just to find good homes for the pups for free.

The breeder that I got my bitch from is a professional who has started to outcross rough collies in order to improve their physiology and health statistics. She's created a 'new' crossbreed called the 'tofty sheepdog'. They look a lot like rough collies but with much shorter easy keep coats, the dogs are more athletic but retain their family friendly laid back 'lassie' vibes. Mine is an angel and perfect for our family.

When I got my bitch the breeder encouraged me to keep her intact in case I should want to breed her as she was a very good example of a tofty. She has done extensive health testing on all of her dogs and would be able to match me with a suitable tofty male or back to a Welsh sheepdog.

I am torn though, as lots of folks that I know (and lots of folks on mumsnet) think that breeding a dog is irrisponsible due to all of the dogs needing homes in shelters. My main motivation would be that I think there should be more tofty's in the world and that they're a good alternative to labradors/cockapoos/more common breeds. They're rare and have not yet taken off - but could be popular if more folk knew about them.

Rough collies are becoming very rare and are now classed at 'at risk' by the kennel club. I do not think that continuing to breed from a closed register would be good for the breeds health statistics - so I'm fully behind the tofty ethos.

Am I being unreasonable?

I would have to say that you are being unreasonable. The best dogs will always be mutts. Adopt, don’t shop!

you want to bring more xbreeds into this world?
Isn't it bad enough that we have the brachycephalic breeds, the breeds susceptible to hip dysplasia, bald dogs, dogs that are so fucking tiny they fit into a teacup..

I wouldn't be trusting someone who 'creates' new crossbreeds and then encourages the people who buy those puppies to breed them too. Bet there will be some type of handling fee or whatever when she 'matches' you. Are you even experienced in breeding dogs?

Why would you do it to your dog, regardless of anything else, the dog will be in pain, may even die, and get absolutely no benefit at all.

Every breed, even pedigrees, are mongrels somewhere in their heritage. If the rough collie is near extinction due to breeding problems making it unhealthy and unsustainable let it go.

Nah, I reckon your motivation is money, not for the good of the breed.

Same with all the other backyard breeders

Hugely, massively, enormously unreasonable

I think you’d be unreasonable just based on the information you have given so far.

Just buying a well bred dog doesn’t mean they are going to be suitable for breeding and there’s many things you should (if you’re a responsible owner) do first. For example with our dog, both his mum and dad had been fully health tested with certificates to verify results. You’d need to get that done as a minimum and for all of those tests with your vets is typically £3000-4000. These checked for absolutely everything and if you wish to be a responsible breeder you’d be doing that as a bare minimum.

You also don’t include any knowledge or experience you have on being a “breeder”, for example have you registered yourself with the council to be one? Again, any responsible breeder would do this.

If you haven’t paid for the health tests and you haven’t gotten yourself on the register or even enquired on how to do this, then I’d say yep, unreasonable, because for me those would be the very first things that any responsible breeder would have done. It sounds as though you quite like the sound of the £££ for selling puppies without doing the practical and responsible bits first- including spending a lot of money ensuring you have a dog that should be bred.

Does the world really need any more cross breeds,whether they've a catchy name like "tofty" or not. Surely a cross breed is always going to be unpredictable and what do you do with the pups who don't make the grade.I remember many years ago my parents bought a pedigree pup from a very highly respected breeder.She had 15 small pedigree terriers which she had ruled out of breeding due to what she regarded as temperament flaws etc.These dogs were living our their natural lives with her but I doubt if many would have the capacity to do this.
I admit that I've a jaded view of dog breeding because I live near one of the largest puppy farms in Europe.A quick scan of our local dog shelter tells me that collies and collie crosses are almost impossible to re-home.

Not unreasonable at all. As long as you are licensed and your bitch and the stud are healthy and health tested clear for genetic hereditary conditions, and you are prepared in the event of a tricky delivery, then no not unreasonable.

I like the sound of the breed.

You lost me at 'she created a new crossbreed'. The main motivation for breeders is money, don't try to elevate it into something it's not.

You're an idiot to even consider this. Your dog is a mongrel not a tofty, and your 'professional' breeder is just another puppy farmer. Its bs that rescues won't rehome to people with other pets/children. They probs wouldn't rehome to you because you didn't offer a suitable home for any of their dogs. There are hundreds of thousands of unwanted dogs in the UK and you want to add to the problem. Fucking tofty ffs.

A rough collie with a shorter coat is called a Smoothcoat Collie and is a registered pedigree breed, so no need to create yet another named cross breed.

The Rough Collie is not on the at risk breed list - smooth and bearded are . If a breed is on the at risk register creating a cross breed will be hindering the breed not helping it . YABVU , anybody breeding crossbreeds is doing it purely for money and it’s actually a pity that you want to risk your own dogs health for a few quid .

Funnily enough I saw a rough collie puppy this morning & thought that I'd not seen one for years.

Maybe if you had a purebred rough collie and planned one litter with the support of the breeder I could get on board. Your plan? No way.

Oh yeah exactly what the world needs, more cross breed dogs, apparently pomskies, cockapoos, cavapoochons, and springador weren't enough, let's have a new one.

YANBU at all.

People are bonkers. MN and FB full of crazies who insist you’ll ‘deprive’ a rescue of a good home if you do this. That’s not how pet ownership works.

You sound like a nice owner with a good bitch and so why wouldn’t you if that’s what you like. Get lots of input from your vet and buy ‘The Book of the Bitch’ to see you through.

Are you the OP with a name change?

Gosh- lots more no's than I was expecting. I'm not one of these posters who will plow ahead with my plan regardless of the consensus- so don't take this the wrong way, I'm just continuing the conversation.

Does everyone feel this way about cockapoos? Families looking for an easy breed good with kids easy coat? Surely all breeds are a combination of something at some point? The benefits of a pedigree are are more predictable in looks and temperament but it's not an exact science and crossbreeds do tend to be significantly healthier which I think is a significant plus.

Smooth collies have a much shorter coat and still shed loads- toftys are medium fine double coat. Mine sheds very little but I imagine this varies.

I would imagine most collie crosses would be border collies most suitable for farm/working and not easy to rehome because they don't make good pets.

Most rescues won't re home to families with young children- won't even do a home visit to assess. I couldn't find any that would and no potential dogs that could ensure they'd be good with free ranging chickens and cats.

I would have registered and health checked. Would have charged minimal to cover these costs but absolutely not interested in turning a profit. The motivation would be more family friendly dogs in the world and to make toftys a 'thing'.

Plenty of puppies already out there....

I know it's not answering the original question but be aware that if you breed two hybrids/crossbreds you will get more not less variation of characteristics in the puppies. Eg poodle x Labrador will give a litter of puppies who have 50% genes from the lab and 50% from the poodle. Breed one of these dogs in the future with another labradoodle and when the chromosomes get shuffled some will get >50% lab and others >50% poodle creating more variation than in the first cross.

So in your example if you breed your "tofty" with another you may find a few of the pups have the full rough collie coat the original "tofty" benefits from not having...

I understand your point of view

I have a cross and the breeder produced this cross to help with the health issues breeding for over exaggerated characteristics has had on the dogs.
Both mum and dad had extensive health tests more than many people people breeding pups will bother with.

Unfortunately I don't think breeding is the right answer here, too many people are struggaling financially to be able to properly care for a dog, loads are being sold on or given to rescues.

@BeeKeeping , the reason a dog rescue centre wouldn't entertain you is because you have small children..

I would imagine most collie crosses would be border collies most suitable for farm/working and not easy to rehome because they don't make good pets.

No. Border collies are bred and trained for working. A border collie or collie cross will probably have a herding instinct and a farmer would not want one near the sheep.

Your dog's breeder sold you a mongrel pup.

Thank you- I will buy that book

Unless you are American, you use of plow is most unreasonable