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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To have a litter of puppies?

254 replies

BeeKeeping · 23/02/2024 11:43

I'm fully aware that this will be controversial - but hear me out..

It's not always possible to rescue a dog. When we were looking we had a 1y0 and a 3yo, chickens, 3 cats and (rightly) no rescue would entertain us. Lots of families have young children/ other pets and need a puppy in order to ensure that they have the correct exposure to all of these things.

I think in the past it was common for 'back yard' breeders, folks with good bitches to have a litter and sell these for much less than the current pedigree prices. Or just to find good homes for the pups for free.

The breeder that I got my bitch from is a professional who has started to outcross rough collies in order to improve their physiology and health statistics. She's created a 'new' crossbreed called the 'tofty sheepdog'. They look a lot like rough collies but with much shorter easy keep coats, the dogs are more athletic but retain their family friendly laid back 'lassie' vibes. Mine is an angel and perfect for our family.

When I got my bitch the breeder encouraged me to keep her intact in case I should want to breed her as she was a very good example of a tofty. She has done extensive health testing on all of her dogs and would be able to match me with a suitable tofty male or back to a Welsh sheepdog.

I am torn though, as lots of folks that I know (and lots of folks on mumsnet) think that breeding a dog is irrisponsible due to all of the dogs needing homes in shelters. My main motivation would be that I think there should be more tofty's in the world and that they're a good alternative to labradors/cockapoos/more common breeds. They're rare and have not yet taken off - but could be popular if more folk knew about them.

Rough collies are becoming very rare and are now classed at 'at risk' by the kennel club. I do not think that continuing to breed from a closed register would be good for the breeds health statistics - so I'm fully behind the tofty ethos.

Am I being unreasonable?

OP posts:
schloss · 23/02/2024 13:16

BeeKeeping · 23/02/2024 12:56

Thank you for taking the time. This is indeed grim reading and does make me think twice.

It seems a shame that only show dogs get to be produced. That there is no longer a place for non toxic family breeding. So you're either a commercial enterprise (likely involving keeping dogs outside in kennels) or you're a case less money grabbing scumbag?

No family friendly nice pets having puppy's any more?

Show quote history

It is not just show dogs which are produced by good breeders, but good and healthy stock of that particular breed. All puppies are first and foremost placed into very good homes as family pets - if those people then choose to show or work their dog, that is great but it is not mandatory.

Show dogs are not bred - a good puppy may become a good show dog. Using fully health tested, good temperaments and good conformation sire and dam, may increase the chances of their offspring doing well in the show ring but it is far from guaranteed.

A fantastic pet home is what the majority of good pedigree dog breeders want.

Original poster
BeeKeeping · 23/02/2024 13:16

Blistory · 23/02/2024 13:15

Where's your consideration of your dog in all of this ?

You have a, presumably, happy, healthy girl. Part of the family ? Loved by you all ?

Why then would you want to risk her health and life ? It's not her responsibilty to pass on her blood lines. She doesn't owe anyone puppies no matter how noble you think the cause may be. You, on the other hand, do owe her a duty of care and first and foremost she's a family pet, not a business.

That's very true.

I wanted more of a good thing- but the risks may be too high.

OP posts:
LakieLady · 23/02/2024 13:22

You're so right, @stormywhethers321 .

This is about bulldogs, not pugs, but the same principles apply and it is shocking how they have been bred:

Bulldog breeding

The (de-)evolution of the bulldog - Scienceline

Here’s how a powerful breed of guard dogs turned into humanity’s cruelest genetics experiment

https://scienceline.org/2017/09/de-evolution-bulldog/

Skiphopbump · 23/02/2024 13:22

I have a dog and wouldn’t breed from her because she’s too precious to me.

A neighbours dog became very unwell within hours of having her second litter and nearly died - it’s not a risk I would be prepared to take with my pet.

Original poster
BeeKeeping · 23/02/2024 13:23

Scattery · 23/02/2024 13:16

Not here to say YABU or YANBU, just that I had the most wonderful Rough Collie in the world when I was a teenager and he most likely saved my life (I was very depressed).

That being said, he was a very healthy boy, no CEA, no PRA, hips fine, no drug sensitivities. So it's possible to have entirely healthy Collies without crossbreeding - I don't buy the health angle. I think there needs to be more evidence of "crossbred vigour". The idea of going back to the breed's roots, I can see, because the Collie has changed over the years to fit KC standards/the show ring. I also don't buy the "adopt don't breed" angle - I very much support rescue and have fostered dogs in the past, but I've also seen perfectly good families turned away due to blanket policies on not adopting to families with kids under 12, etc. In any case, if you do decide to breed, I'd encourage you to look hard at what all's required, have a strong stomach, and have a plan for future pups (screening owners, taking back unwanted pups, etc).

Lastly, there's lots of talk about "cockapoos" on here, can I please spearhead a movement to rename them? "Spoodle" sounds so much nicer :)

Rough collies are wonderful aren't they!

I see toftys as rough colllies but better but clearly I'm in the minority!

When I was looking for a puppy I would have jumped at the chance to buy a dog from a family home with other pets etc and good genetics. I would have liked a puppy raised in a house. I ended up going with a more commercial breeder because I liked the mix. Having read all of the comments it seems that the only rescue/pedigree breeders are acceptable!

OP posts:
Firsttimebabymama · 23/02/2024 13:25

YABVU

Toddlerteaplease · 23/02/2024 13:27

You will become a backyard breeder. Just don't.

Firsttimebabymama · 23/02/2024 13:28

BeeKeeping · 23/02/2024 12:56

Thank you for taking the time. This is indeed grim reading and does make me think twice.

It seems a shame that only show dogs get to be produced. That there is no longer a place for non toxic family breeding. So you're either a commercial enterprise (likely involving keeping dogs outside in kennels) or you're a case less money grabbing scumbag?

No family friendly nice pets having puppy's any more?

Show quote history

No family friendly nice pets having puppy's any more?

That's because there is no need for them. I can't see why anyone would want to rink their beloved dogs life- which is what you're doing by breeding from her.

Porfirio · 23/02/2024 13:29

'The breeder that I got my bitch from is a professional who has started to outcross rough collies in order to improve their physiology and health statistics. She's created a 'new' crossbreed called the 'tofty sheepdog'. They look a lot like rough collies but with much shorter easy keep coats, the dogs are more athletic but retain their family friendly laid back 'lassie' vibes.'

I find that absolutely sickening that you have got sucked into this crap.

Her motive is MONEY.

Marian220 · 23/02/2024 13:30

You are being unreasonable.

KirstenBlest · 23/02/2024 13:30

@Lanawashington
Crossbreeds do tend to be significantly healthier which I think is a significant plus. I've always wondered where this idea came from. It's a genetic lottery, you don't know if they will get all the good parts of both parents or all the bad bits.

It's a bit of a myth. Some pedigree breeds are healthier than others.
A pure JRT is likely to be healthier than a JRTxPug.
Popular breeds like Dachshunds and French Bulldogs have been bred to have certain unnatural physical characteristics, so a Dachshund x Pug might get two sets of problems.

MarnieMarnie · 23/02/2024 13:35

There is no such thing as a tofty. It's just a fucking stupid name made up by a puppy farmer who wants to make £££ by selling as many badly bred pups as possible. Open your eyes @BeeKeeping

OopsOutnumbered123 · 23/02/2024 13:38

Have a litter OP if you think it’s the right thing for you and your dog.

There are some right loony’s on this thread 😂

One or two litters in the dogs lifetime is fine, maybe reach out to the breeder first and see if they know of anyone after a pup first and get some buyers lined up. Don’t bother registering with the council for one litter only and do your research first, which I’m sure you will as you sound like a decent owner.

MarnieMarnie · 23/02/2024 13:41

MatildaTheCat · 23/02/2024 12:42

But as already stated the difficulty is that many rescues are completely resistant to homing dogs unless they meet a whole range of rigid criteria. For many good, decent and potentially great dog owners getting a puppy is their only option.

OP go for it and frankly there’s nothing inherently wrong with making some profit, it looks like exceedingly hard work raising a litter of puppies.

Show quote history

I'm not convinced that there are any rescues that don't want to rehome their dogs. I do know that there are an awful lot of people who think they would be brilliant owners and are completely delusional about the realities of providing a good home, which the rescues will see. I also know that going to a rescue centre isn't like going to a supermarket where you choose what you want. Decent rescues rehome the dog to the best family for that dog's needs. You can't just pick and choose.

schloss · 23/02/2024 13:41

"One or two litters in the dogs lifetime is fine" - no it is not. If you consider me to be a "loony" with my opinion - I would far rather been deemed a loony than a puppy farmer of "designer" cross breed dogs.

Original poster
BeeKeeping · 23/02/2024 13:42

OopsOutnumbered123 · 23/02/2024 13:38

Have a litter OP if you think it’s the right thing for you and your dog.

There are some right loony’s on this thread 😂

One or two litters in the dogs lifetime is fine, maybe reach out to the breeder first and see if they know of anyone after a pup first and get some buyers lined up. Don’t bother registering with the council for one litter only and do your research first, which I’m sure you will as you sound like a decent owner.

Gosh thank you for posting. I was beginning to think I must secretly be a monster for even letting the thought cross my mind!

OP posts:
K0OLA1D · 23/02/2024 13:42

OopsOutnumbered123 · 23/02/2024 13:38

Have a litter OP if you think it’s the right thing for you and your dog.

There are some right loony’s on this thread 😂

One or two litters in the dogs lifetime is fine, maybe reach out to the breeder first and see if they know of anyone after a pup first and get some buyers lined up. Don’t bother registering with the council for one litter only and do your research first, which I’m sure you will as you sound like a decent owner.

It's literally good for no one. Ffs. There are plenty of people out there breeding dogs they have no business breeding. Why encourage more?

Hardly a 'looney' opinion

Original poster
BeeKeeping · 23/02/2024 13:43

MarnieMarnie · 23/02/2024 13:35

There is no such thing as a tofty. It's just a fucking stupid name made up by a puppy farmer who wants to make £££ by selling as many badly bred pups as possible. Open your eyes @BeeKeeping

I genuinely think that this breeder has her dogs best interests at heart and is trying to get the rough collie back to the look and health of 100 years ago. She doesn't charge a fortune, I don't think this is her get rich quick scheme!

OP posts:
K0OLA1D · 23/02/2024 13:45

BeeKeeping · 23/02/2024 13:43

I genuinely think that this breeder has her dogs best interests at heart and is trying to get the rough collie back to the look and health of 100 years ago. She doesn't charge a fortune, I don't think this is her get rich quick scheme!

Show quote history

If she breeds, she certainly doesn't have her dogs best interest at heart.

How anyone can't see this is beyond me

Left · 23/02/2024 13:47

Given that dog rescues are overrun, and living costs are still on the rise, what would be your contingency plan if you couldn’t sell all (or indeed any) of the litter?

I’m definitely in the Adopt Don’t Shop camp, but also wanted to flag that I don’t see how this can work as a business, I just don’t see how the figures can stack up. Have you done a fully scoped business plan, taking into account costs?

Original poster
BeeKeeping · 23/02/2024 13:48

Really?! So now no one can breed dogs? People should just adopt all the rescues whether suitable for their home circumstances or not- until they all die of natural causes and that'll be the end to the whole thing. Dogs no longer exist- problem solved

OP posts:
Fleetheart · 23/02/2024 13:48

@BeeKeeping honestly, I can’t believe some of the replies on the thread- yes have some puppies if you’d like to and you make sure your bitch doesn’t have any genetic issues. Like you I tried to get a rescue dog but couldn’t get one due to cats. a neighbour had a litter of pups- her lovely dog and her best friend’s dog. they did all the tests. He is the best dog ever and I am so happy to have him. On another note I actually think the charities are creating this a bit - it’s so hard to get a rescue that we are forced into buying!

K0OLA1D · 23/02/2024 13:49

BeeKeeping · 23/02/2024 13:48

Really?! So now no one can breed dogs? People should just adopt all the rescues whether suitable for their home circumstances or not- until they all die of natural causes and that'll be the end to the whole thing. Dogs no longer exist- problem solved

There are so so so many breeders out there. So is that honestly really likely to happen? Come on. Pull the other one

whatsitcalledwhen · 23/02/2024 13:49

Whatever your motivation is OP, surely your primary duty of care is to your existing dog.

There is no possible benefit to her if you do this. Her health will be put at risk and she will go through pregnancy, birth and have to let at least some of her babies go because you won't be keeping them all.

You love her, yes? She's a gorgeous girl who has brought joy and fun and warmth to your home?

So how can you consider putting her through all that?

Original poster
BeeKeeping · 23/02/2024 13:50

Left · 23/02/2024 13:47

Given that dog rescues are overrun, and living costs are still on the rise, what would be your contingency plan if you couldn’t sell all (or indeed any) of the litter?

I’m definitely in the Adopt Don’t Shop camp, but also wanted to flag that I don’t see how this can work as a business, I just don’t see how the figures can stack up. Have you done a fully scoped business plan, taking into account costs?

I don't have a contingency plan- so should probably sack the whole idea. I do not want to live in a house with 15 dogs.

But I'm enjoying testing the lengths to which the adoption only posters hold their ideals.

OP posts:
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