To have a litter of puppies?

[BeeKeeping]

I'm fully aware that this will be controversial - but hear me out..

It's not always possible to rescue a dog. When we were looking we had a 1y0 and a 3yo, chickens, 3 cats and (rightly) no rescue would entertain us. Lots of families have young children/ other pets and need a puppy in order to ensure that they have the correct exposure to all of these things.

I think in the past it was common for 'back yard' breeders, folks with good bitches to have a litter and sell these for much less than the current pedigree prices. Or just to find good homes for the pups for free.

The breeder that I got my bitch from is a professional who has started to outcross rough collies in order to improve their physiology and health statistics. She's created a 'new' crossbreed called the 'tofty sheepdog'. They look a lot like rough collies but with much shorter easy keep coats, the dogs are more athletic but retain their family friendly laid back 'lassie' vibes. Mine is an angel and perfect for our family.

When I got my bitch the breeder encouraged me to keep her intact in case I should want to breed her as she was a very good example of a tofty. She has done extensive health testing on all of her dogs and would be able to match me with a suitable tofty male or back to a Welsh sheepdog.

I am torn though, as lots of folks that I know (and lots of folks on mumsnet) think that breeding a dog is irrisponsible due to all of the dogs needing homes in shelters. My main motivation would be that I think there should be more tofty's in the world and that they're a good alternative to labradors/cockapoos/more common breeds. They're rare and have not yet taken off - but could be popular if more folk knew about them.

Rough collies are becoming very rare and are now classed at 'at risk' by the kennel club. I do not think that continuing to breed from a closed register would be good for the breeds health statistics - so I'm fully behind the tofty ethos.

Am I being unreasonable?

I think using the term cross bread muddied the water on this thread. It's more outcrossing the rough collie to an old land race breed to improve the long term health and gene pool of the rough collie.

Is cross bread Hovis?

Only if it is sour dough

This says it all. YABVVVU.

A few months later - what did you decide in the end OP?

This seems to be all about you rather than the dogs OP.

How about a Tamagotchi?

We had the puppies! In fact the last one left yesterday to her new home.

It was fine, a bit stressful having puppies for the last few weeks but no drama and the new puppy owners were delighted. We could have sold them three times over.

Great, more dogs we don't need. Well done, Disney people, literally breeding shit machines that will end up in shelters Stop fetishising puppies.

No one 'needs' a puppy.

If you are the OP then that means your dog was already mated when you wrote your OP so what was the point when it was already a done deal other than to drum up some business .

Are you the OP?

Tbh I agree with you about rescue dogs - it’s almost impossible to get one if you have children, work, are an inexperienced dog owner or don’t have a massive back garden.

Part of the reason for these requirements is, let’s be honest, because rescue dogs are often difficult and display behavioural or psychological problems. Due to their backgrounds or just from being in the shelter itself which is a very stressful environment.

I’m not a dog owner but I can 100% see the appeal of rather getting a puppy which you can raise yourself, train yourself and isn’t disturbed! It’s not people ‘fetishising puppies’, it’s that it’s so difficult to get a rescue dog and even if you do, it will likely be quite difficult to own one. Everyone I know with a rescue dog has struggled with it as every single one has had some kind of behavioural problems.

are you the original op? Who did you mate with? There was nothing on the tofty Facebook page about a new litter and that must have happened extremely quickly. I’m surprised the main breeder hasn’t said anything about a new litter given there are so few dogs at the moment to breed from.

why is your post not coloured to show you’re the OP?

I know I sound insane but I can't stand the idea of a bitch being shagged against her will and having to have a litter.

@Theoriginalmrscillianmurphy , the bitch is usually not doing it against her will.

@KirstenBlest I'm not so sure. I witnessed a bitch being covered one time and that poor little dog did her best to get away, whimpered so much for hours after.

It was years ago and I'm still not over it.

I eventually ended up being the owner of that dog.

Well that's odd- @TheSuggestedAmendment is definitely not me. What an odd thing to lie about!

I have- in the spirit of AIBU, decided to stick to my original perspective, despite hundreds of people telling me otherwise.

First litters are often small, we already have 5 homes lined up and she's no where near going into season yet. We have the space and ability to take back any dogs whose circumstances change. Will likely only do this once. We have a lot of (farm) animals, and they all seem to breed happily without all of the torture described here.

I agree with @Ace56, rescue dogs are not always the answer. And not breeding from friendly good dogs will result in fewer of these. If you don't have the money for or the desire to have a pedigree dog, and a rescue dog isn't a good option, then this might be a good idea.

Just my opinion. I'm going back to hide in my cave while people throw rocks and boo.

I really hope your bitch doesn't die from you forcing her into a situation that doesn't benefit her in any way.

I just can’t believe anyone could care so little about their dog they’d put profit above them. Your poor damn dog. Let’s hope you don’t end up with the bitch dying or her killing the pups.

And fingers crossed that if that doesn’t happen, and she does manage to have healthy pups, that you’ve actually thoroughly vetted the homes you’re going to sell to. Something tells me you haven’t though. Poor birch. Poor pups. The only one benefitting here if you, OP. And we know why - you’re hoping for a quick buck.

I'm not going to throw rocks but I will say that I now don't believe these dogs are good family pets. They are all different of course but mine is not at all like a rough collie in temperament. She is far more like a border collie or the Welsh Sheepdog with which she is crossed. Extremely high energy, ridiculously fast, needs exercise for hours every day and needs occupying for the rest of the time. She also has a very high prey drive and treats family members like her flock so is reactive in protection mode (barking, growling and jumping up to try to bite) and nips (hard) to herd us which is not acceptable for a family pet.

We love her but she is really very hard work. I accept she is not quite six months old so part of this is puppy/teen dog behaviour but we have had rough collies before and she is nothing like them in terms of temperament. It isn't through lack of training. She goes to classes and has a lot of socialisation through group walks etc. She is very very intelligent and picks things up extremely quickly. Its instinct. You can't deny the prey drive and the protection and herding instincts. I wouldn't trust mine around children. I've never said that about one of my dogs (all rough collies) before. Hopefully she'll calm as she gets older.

I do think you're making a mistake. They really are beautiful dogs and that cannot be denied and in terms of coat they are far easier than a rough collie, but the original breeder keeps a large pack of them in kennels - not in a family environment. Reluctantly, I think they are probably more suited to that situation or working on a farm.

@TheSuggestedAmendment so what did you breed then ?

Almost a year on how is you tofty now @Era My Welsh sheepdog is good with A 30min morning walking, 45 min field walk and a couple of 5-10min training sessions. She likes to do a flyby or two but we didn't get the full on herding or nipping.

The rough collie in this country is interbred and suffering from genetic defects due to the UKs very own breeders bar one who are breeding lines that have huge risk of passing on defective genes to the pups. It's not the breed at fault here, it's the BREEDERS who don't DNA test their breeding stock that are ruining this beautiful dogs outcome. There's only one breeder who I shall not name who DNA tests her dogs and breeds for the good of the rough collie and she has been treated with disdain by the other breeders for decades. I had my rough collie from her of American lineage and he was just the most perfect example of the traditional collie..big, rangy, like the old lassie movies. The collies bred nowadays are far removed from that. Blame the breeders not the breed. All about the money...

You aren't entirely wrong that the breed is in a mess, but it is totally incorrect to say that there is only one breeder who is breeding for good health. Don't know why you're being coy about names. If you don't mean Angela Harvey - who deserves the credit for her work - then you are even more wrong really, as many breeders are now breeding with far more attention to health and many are only able to get such good results due to Angela's work.

Not all by any means, and not enough, but many breeders across the UK are now breeding with a good eye to health appropriate to the pedigrees of their dogs.

It is important to recognise the distinction between tests required for those dogs with American lines, who do have susceptibility to some diseases which aren't even present in UK/European lines. Tests for those diseases are therefore a bit pointless in European pedigrees, although they are often included in testing packages from the labs.

So my tofty is now approaching 2. My last post isn't a reflection of the dog she is now. She is lovely. However I stand by my statement that she isn't like a rough collie in temperament. She is like a border collie. She's highly intelligent, super fast and needs a lot of exercise. We are lucky in that we have a very large field for her to run around in at the back of the house and she lets herself in and out. She's out more than in.