To have a litter of puppies?

[BeeKeeping]

I'm fully aware that this will be controversial - but hear me out..

It's not always possible to rescue a dog. When we were looking we had a 1y0 and a 3yo, chickens, 3 cats and (rightly) no rescue would entertain us. Lots of families have young children/ other pets and need a puppy in order to ensure that they have the correct exposure to all of these things.

I think in the past it was common for 'back yard' breeders, folks with good bitches to have a litter and sell these for much less than the current pedigree prices. Or just to find good homes for the pups for free.

The breeder that I got my bitch from is a professional who has started to outcross rough collies in order to improve their physiology and health statistics. She's created a 'new' crossbreed called the 'tofty sheepdog'. They look a lot like rough collies but with much shorter easy keep coats, the dogs are more athletic but retain their family friendly laid back 'lassie' vibes. Mine is an angel and perfect for our family.

When I got my bitch the breeder encouraged me to keep her intact in case I should want to breed her as she was a very good example of a tofty. She has done extensive health testing on all of her dogs and would be able to match me with a suitable tofty male or back to a Welsh sheepdog.

I am torn though, as lots of folks that I know (and lots of folks on mumsnet) think that breeding a dog is irrisponsible due to all of the dogs needing homes in shelters. My main motivation would be that I think there should be more tofty's in the world and that they're a good alternative to labradors/cockapoos/more common breeds. They're rare and have not yet taken off - but could be popular if more folk knew about them.

Rough collies are becoming very rare and are now classed at 'at risk' by the kennel club. I do not think that continuing to breed from a closed register would be good for the breeds health statistics - so I'm fully behind the tofty ethos.

Am I being unreasonable?

I'll correct my earlier post to:
Working border collies are bred and trained for working. A border collie or collie cross will probably have a herding instinct and a farmer would not want one near the sheep.

Border collies are border collies not a cross breed.

Border collies are intelligent dogs that need a lot of exercise and plenty of stimulation. They're not ideal pets unless you are willing to train them.

They are gentle dogs but unless you know what the cross was, you can't guarantee that.

The 'tofty' almost certainly won't have been created by your dog's breeder. It's a bit like saying I created an Oodle because my poodle-cross got it on with one of the neighbours' dogs.

Absolutely BU.

There are well over 200 pedigree dog breeds recognised by the UKKC. There must be several, at least, that meet the same criteria as your mongrel.

Anyone responsible enough to own a dog will also be responsible enough to research a breed, research a breeder who focusses on health and temperament, breeds responsibly, and thoroughly vets potential owners to make sure that they're not letting a puppy go to someone who's a dickhead who doesn't know what they are doing.

Anyone, breeder or buyer, who isn't prepared to put in the effort and do the research doesn't deserve to have a dog imo.

Thank you for taking the time. This is indeed grim reading and does make me think twice.

It seems a shame that only show dogs get to be produced. That there is no longer a place for non toxic family breeding. So you're either a commercial enterprise (likely involving keeping dogs outside in kennels) or you're a case less money grabbing scumbag?

No family friendly nice pets having puppy's any more?

I would take a rough collie over any other made-up breed any day .

I have a rescue/rehomed dog but am not against breeding - but it has to be done responsibly. Along with what others have said, please think carefully about what you would do if you had more pups than good homes for (and please make sure you vet potential owners/families rather than letting the pups go to anyone). Also think about whether you'd be in a position to take a pup/dog back at any point in their life if needed - good breeders offer this. You're responsible for bringing the pups into the world, so it's your responsibility to make sure they're healthy and happy for their whole lives by ensuring they get good homes that can meet all their needs. If you don't feel you can do that, then I don't think you should breed.

I know the breeder you are referring too. She has been trying to improve the bloodlines of the rough collie for years since the modern, smaller, very hairy rough is not like the original rough collie and often has health issues to match. I think her idea of creating this cross breed is to try and get a dog that is more like the original rough collie.

This a million times over

No, you are being unreasonable.

Leave the breeding to the registered professionals and enjoy your family pet.

It’s one of those things that just is best left to the professionals, people who really know what they are doing.

Wanting there to be more dogs out there like yours isn’t a reason to put your family pet through having a litter of puppy’s. And I appreciate that rescues often won’t rehome to families but there are still lots and lots of puppy’s being sold by experienced, fully licensed and council registered breeders. There’s no need at all for Joe public to be breeding their pet under the guise of furthering the breed while actually just fancying a bit extra cash.

I appreciate that I'm being oppositional- I do appreciate all the good advice.

My new stance is - isn't it a shame that poor backyard breeding has put an end to ethical backyard breeding.

It's a shame that only pedigree dogs are 'allowed'

I am not being a 'twatwaffle' (what a brilliant criticism)

There are lots of breeders producing family friendly pets, but not off their own pets. If you love a dog and you know what you're doing, you won't breed her. The risk to her is too high.

Not every dog out of two champions is going to be of champion quality. In fact, a surprisingly few number will. A breeder knows how to identify the truly highest quality puppies, and those are not going to be made available to the public. The others, perfectly nice dogs and the majority of pups, will be adopted out as pets, but you aren't going to be able to get the best of the best because those are for breeding.

The best breeders TREAT their females as if they love them. Every dog should be treated like that. But they maintain an emotional distance, because a breeding dog is bloodstock, not a pet. It's an animal in a for-profit agriculture business. That doesn't mean you can't and shouldn't be kind to her, but if you love her as a pet you won't breed her anymore.

Crossbreeds do tend to be significantly healthier which I think is a significant plus.

I've always wondered where this idea came from. It's a genetic lottery, you don't know if they will get all the good parts of both parents or all the bad bits. I've got a crossbreed and he has got so many health problems, he costs us about £100 a month for tablets and treatments. The other people I know with crossbreeds also have a lot of problems. The people I know with pedigree breeds have a lot less problems

That's quite a story, OP. I don't buy it. Agree with adopt don't shop.

It's not only "show dogs" that are being bred.

I know several breeders who breed dogs that mostly go to pet homes and focus on health and temperament. Some of them breed working breeds and also sell to working homes, and work their own dogs. And most of them don't have outside kennels, their dogs live in the house.

The thing is though, unless you’ve had your dog at the vets for all of the required health tests specifically for breeding (at a cost or £3000-4000) and have those certificates ready to to proving good health, you are not in the “ethical backyard breeding” camp. Because a truly responsible and ethical breeder would have had all of those checks done before even really considering it.

It’s not that only pedigree dogs are allowed, it’s just that have a look at local shelters, there are enough dogs around needing homes and enough pups for sale through “accidents” without someone with no knowledge or experience contributing with their own litter deliberately because they like the breed.

Thank you!

I think she's on to something and would get another tofty (another motivator for me to breed my own) but anyway. Posters are right to highlight that it's not my responsibility to promote this cross to anyone else. Folk can continue to get whatever dog they please.

Hybrid vigour doesn’t really exist for crosses of pedigree dogs. A proper Heinz 57 might benefit from it but if you cross one of these toftys back to a Welsh sheepdog it doesn’t mean it’s got rid of any health issues you might otherwise have had

Poor byb has not put and end to ethical byb because there never has been ethical byb . Back in the day less people had their pets neutered and more people allowed their dogs to roam / escape so people had accidental litters of mixed breeds - it was not responsible .

This idea comes from the unfortunate reality that there are so many badly bred purebreed dogs. Pugs are a typical example. A pug bred with a JRT may produce a healthier offspring than two pugs, because the pup may have a longer snout and be able to breathe better. But the modern standard for pugs is cruel and unhealthy. If you look at pictures of pugs before modern breed standards were a thing, they had significantly longer faces and could breathe normally. Those pugs could produce scores of healthy litters between themselves. It's only now that the breed has been ruined by unethical breeding that they need to be cross-bred in order to produce offspring that can breathe.

If my dogs parents are genetically clear, and so she cannot be a carrier and the male dog is genetically clear then surely that eliminates the risk of the more common testable genetic diseases for any potential puppies?

There are enough mutt pups already.

Yabu.

Where's your consideration of your dog in all of this ?

You have a, presumably, happy, healthy girl. Part of the family ? Loved by you all ?

Why then would you want to risk her health and life ? It's not her responsibilty to pass on her blood lines. She doesn't owe anyone puppies no matter how noble you think the cause may be. You, on the other hand, do owe her a duty of care and first and foremost she's a family pet, not a business.

Not here to say YABU or YANBU, just that I had the most wonderful Rough Collie in the world when I was a teenager and he most likely saved my life (I was very depressed).

That being said, he was a very healthy boy, no CEA, no PRA, hips fine, no drug sensitivities. So it's possible to have entirely healthy Collies without crossbreeding - I don't buy the health angle. I think there needs to be more evidence of "crossbred vigour". The idea of going back to the breed's roots, I can see, because the Collie has changed over the years to fit KC standards/the show ring. I also don't buy the "adopt don't breed" angle - I very much support rescue and have fostered dogs in the past, but I've also seen perfectly good families turned away due to blanket policies on not adopting to families with kids under 12, etc. In any case, if you do decide to breed, I'd encourage you to look hard at what all's required, have a strong stomach, and have a plan for future pups (screening owners, taking back unwanted pups, etc).

Lastly, there's lots of talk about "cockapoos" on here, can I please spearhead a movement to rename them? "Spoodle" sounds so much nicer :)