To have a litter of puppies?

[BeeKeeping]

I'm fully aware that this will be controversial - but hear me out..

It's not always possible to rescue a dog. When we were looking we had a 1y0 and a 3yo, chickens, 3 cats and (rightly) no rescue would entertain us. Lots of families have young children/ other pets and need a puppy in order to ensure that they have the correct exposure to all of these things.

I think in the past it was common for 'back yard' breeders, folks with good bitches to have a litter and sell these for much less than the current pedigree prices. Or just to find good homes for the pups for free.

The breeder that I got my bitch from is a professional who has started to outcross rough collies in order to improve their physiology and health statistics. She's created a 'new' crossbreed called the 'tofty sheepdog'. They look a lot like rough collies but with much shorter easy keep coats, the dogs are more athletic but retain their family friendly laid back 'lassie' vibes. Mine is an angel and perfect for our family.

When I got my bitch the breeder encouraged me to keep her intact in case I should want to breed her as she was a very good example of a tofty. She has done extensive health testing on all of her dogs and would be able to match me with a suitable tofty male or back to a Welsh sheepdog.

I am torn though, as lots of folks that I know (and lots of folks on mumsnet) think that breeding a dog is irrisponsible due to all of the dogs needing homes in shelters. My main motivation would be that I think there should be more tofty's in the world and that they're a good alternative to labradors/cockapoos/more common breeds. They're rare and have not yet taken off - but could be popular if more folk knew about them.

Rough collies are becoming very rare and are now classed at 'at risk' by the kennel club. I do not think that continuing to breed from a closed register would be good for the breeds health statistics - so I'm fully behind the tofty ethos.

Am I being unreasonable?

Thanks @Fleetheart, I forgot about that one but to me that definition excludes many people who breed dogs to make money and create designer cross breeds.

Maybe they just saw right through you and didn't want you to own a dog. After all, breeding them is putting the dogs needs first innit......

The breeder who created Tofties has spent hundreds of thousands importing dogs that are health tested to the eyeballs for lots of things that Rough Collies are susceptible to. She is one of very few Rough breeders who has a kennel of dogs who are proven genetically clear of all the main diseases that Roughs are prone to.

Whether you agree with the Rough x Welsh Sheepdog crosses (which is what Tofties are) or not, it has 100% not been done for profit. She is an extremely knowledgeable and clever breeder.

So that aside, and accepting MN's hatred of anyone breeding even well-thought out and health tested litters ... no-one should undertake breeding a litter lightly. It is HARD work. Nights spent sleeping with Mum and babies until they are strong enough to leave. Constant feeding, cleaning, feeding, cleaning etc.

Puppies do not sell well at the moment, so you need to have the facilities to keep several extremely intelligent and energetic pups well past the age pups can normally go to their new homes.

Obviously any time a bitch is bred, there is a chance that things can go horribly wrong. This may result in a huge vet bill or the worst case, the loss of your much loved pet. It is unusual, but that would be no comfort if you were the one it happened to.

Negatives aside though - when it goes right, it is a joy!

I was considering being that neighbour - lovely dog to lovely dog with good health tests!

I don't think I have the stomach for it though and have never been so thoroughly shot down in my life!

honestly you are really grasping at straws now. and really, no need to be so insulting 🙂. It is actually difficult to adopt a dog unless you fit a very strict criteria.

I believe you're right OP hasn't even spoken about the market for these dogs .
Not like the Labrador breeder knowing there is a market out there for their dogs .

"But I'm enjoying testing the lengths to which the adoption only posters hold their ideals" @BeeKeeping that statement questions the motives of this thread totally. I think I and others, who have some canine knowledge, have given sensible advice but I think there may be more to this thread than meets the eye.

2 weeks to the start of Crufts always sees the "anti-pedigree, must get a rescue" pieces appearing.

This is hilarious! I can categorically state that there are a multitude of bitches that do not enjoy it. You are anthropomorphising. Bitches don’t dream of raising their families and settling down in the leafy suburbs. They breed because it’s an animal instinct. If you neuter your pet then they don’t even have that urge either.
Some bitches don’t do well raising their pups and then people have to step in and bottle feed for many reasons; mastitis, hypocalcaemia, general lack of interest in the pups (happens more regularly with first time whelpings because the mum doesn’t really know what she’s doing).
And then at the end of all that the pups are taken away and sold. It is not for the benefit of the dam at all. It’s for human interest and money usually.
Also we cannot compare our domesticated pets with wild dogs and wolves as their packs and hierarchy etc are on another level.

I have RA, 2 kids and 3 cats and we adopted. Sadly passed now.

I'm not being insulting. You are the one that echoed that the breeder had the dogs best interests at heart.

Can I just say there is some really dangerous misinformation about rescuing on this thread. I believe that the whole narrative of ‘rescues won’t consider us because of…’ is BS and used as an excuse to buy a puppy.

We rescued our last dog who we lost last year and now in the process of looking for our next rescue. It takes time and patience to find the right rescue and some hard work in terms of research and communication with the rescues. I suspect that people find it much easier to go on to various websites and find a puppy that just happens to be nearly 8 weeks and hey presto.

Also if you really want a puppy there are often puppies in rescues. Again it takes patience to be aware and ready to adopt one.

@BeeKeeping if you really care about the welfare of all dogs please do correct your misinformation about rescuing.

To answer your original question, you clearly going to do it so good luck to your poor dog having read the posts above about what can go wrong.

OP isn't your duty of care to your dog?

There is no possible benefit to her if you do this. Her health will be put at risk and she will go through pregnancy, birth and have to let at least some of her babies go because you won't be keeping them all.

You love her, yes? She's a gorgeous girl who has brought joy and fun and warmth to your home?

So how can you consider putting her through all that?

Having seen many badly bred and deeply unhealthy kc registered pedigree dogs, I'm not convinced there is a single breeder in the land that breeds because they love their dogs. I think you're being incredibly naive about her motives. Nobody ever decided that the best way to improve a breed was to cross it with something else and rename it. She's either greedy, stupid or a combination.

There are so many brilliant posts on this thread, they should be made into stickies and reposted every time some idiot asks this question with wide eyed naivety 🙄 I have a beautiful bitch, people ask all the time about puppies or if she 'available' to breed. And because I love her the answer if hell no, why would I do that to her?!? Why @BeeKeeping would you put your girl through this??

@Fleetheart It’s certainly a lot harder with cats! But still not any harder than a few weeks of research and effort. Greyhound rescues cat-test their dogs and regularly home to families with cats. MuffinPug certainly match with cats, and other small-dog rescues like shih-tzu or chihuaha you wouldn’t have a problem. You just might need to wait a bit longer to get your match.

We also explored the idea of rehoming from Pets4Homes or Gumtree. You often have an elderly person who has died or gone into a home, leaving behind their dog. Or people who need to move into rented accommodation and rehome. Ethically I don’t love it as much as using a proper rescue. But it’s a lot better than buying a puppy and supporting breeders, and that would have been our next port of call if we hadn’t been approved for rescues.

I’d strongly advise you not to if you love your bitch. Ours had a litter last summer because we adore her and thought her genes were too good not to pass on. We had excellent homes lined up for four puppies and planned to give them away. She ended up having a C section and we nearly lost her. Two of her three pups were stillborn. Although we now have a bouncy eight month old dog as well as his mum, I bitterly regret putting her through it and she’s now spayed.

Of course YABU. And goady. Do what you're going to do anyway.

It's not misinformation for me to describe my factual account of what happened to me!

I'm pleased to hear that there are rescues that will rehome to household with other pets and children- that's great news. It just wasn't my experience, that's all I'm saying.

Thanks for posting. Really helpful to hear real world examples from folks who are not staunchly militant on the subject.

I had to rehome my dog unfortunately and the rescue advertised him for older children only. He was in a home with a baby and was fine from newborns+ unfortunately rescues won’t rehome to young families. Personally I’d rather a family dog than a pedigree or a backyard breeder or someone charging thousands.

What happens when your puppies are given away/taken to shelter because they become inconvenient? Shelters are full of dogs that arent wanted. Are you ok if your puppies end up there?
This is the main reason why i could never have puppies. The world is filled with unwanted dogs. No reason to produce more.

@BeeKeeping I am curious how many different rescues did you approach? Did you go via breed specific ones? Did you spend time talking to rescues? Did you consider (shock horror) actually waiting and following their advice? I’m sorry but you are only confirming what I said. And you are only going to add to the current problem we have with too many dogs to rescue that many are being PTS.

Adopt don’t shop.

You’re welcome. It was horrible for her and for us. She used to waltz happily into the vets and she’s now traumatised. I genuinely can’t overstate how guilty I feel. I’d never do it again.

@BIossomtoes

I'm glad she made it through, thank goodness. It's refreshing on emotive threads like this to have someone come on and say they regret it or feel guilty. It's important that owners like OP hear that.

Just to add: My aunt had accident puppies when I was a child. They had 5 puppies, small breed.
We took one of them and he lived a long happy life.
Puppy 2: Jumped out of the car when not even 1 year old and died instantly.
Puppy 3: Wasnput down at age 2 because the owner got pregnant.
Puppy 4: Was taken to shelter when owner got pregnant. My aunt got her back from there and kept her in the end.
Puppy 5: Ran away and got run over by a car about 2 months after rehoming.

All puppies were given to friends or people living nearby that my aunt thought she knew and are nice responsible people.
You will never know how it all turns out.