To have a litter of puppies?

[BeeKeeping]

I'm fully aware that this will be controversial - but hear me out..

It's not always possible to rescue a dog. When we were looking we had a 1y0 and a 3yo, chickens, 3 cats and (rightly) no rescue would entertain us. Lots of families have young children/ other pets and need a puppy in order to ensure that they have the correct exposure to all of these things.

I think in the past it was common for 'back yard' breeders, folks with good bitches to have a litter and sell these for much less than the current pedigree prices. Or just to find good homes for the pups for free.

The breeder that I got my bitch from is a professional who has started to outcross rough collies in order to improve their physiology and health statistics. She's created a 'new' crossbreed called the 'tofty sheepdog'. They look a lot like rough collies but with much shorter easy keep coats, the dogs are more athletic but retain their family friendly laid back 'lassie' vibes. Mine is an angel and perfect for our family.

When I got my bitch the breeder encouraged me to keep her intact in case I should want to breed her as she was a very good example of a tofty. She has done extensive health testing on all of her dogs and would be able to match me with a suitable tofty male or back to a Welsh sheepdog.

I am torn though, as lots of folks that I know (and lots of folks on mumsnet) think that breeding a dog is irrisponsible due to all of the dogs needing homes in shelters. My main motivation would be that I think there should be more tofty's in the world and that they're a good alternative to labradors/cockapoos/more common breeds. They're rare and have not yet taken off - but could be popular if more folk knew about them.

Rough collies are becoming very rare and are now classed at 'at risk' by the kennel club. I do not think that continuing to breed from a closed register would be good for the breeds health statistics - so I'm fully behind the tofty ethos.

Am I being unreasonable?

What's wrong with plow? Do people not say 'plow on?' To keep going with something? I'm baffled

As others have said your dog is a mongrel. Back yard breeders are motivated by money and I suspect your motivation is no exception.

who exactly are you going to register your crossbreed with ? I’d also like to see your actual research where you’ve seen crossbreeds are healthier than pedigrees , and I say that as the owner of a crossbreed rescue with significant health problems .

The density of your reply beggars belief. Rescue centres are full to bursting with family friendly breeds, currently including all of the French bulldogs and poodle crosses that were bought in the lockdown by thoughtless idiots. No doubt by next year they will be full of badly bred daschunds. If you, or anyone else, 'legitimate' or otherwise, breeds dogs at the moment you're just adding to the problem. There is absolutely no need for any dog breeding at all right now. And this stupid tofty idea, Jesus christ. Words fail me.

This just reads like an advert. Are you actually the "creator" of the "tofty"?

My friend has a fancy crossbreed with several health problems that he has inherited from both side of his breed. He's a dote, but they're never out of the vet with him. Your girl turned out great, and you love her and that's wonderful but a new designer mix is not what the world needs. You also can't say that the "breed" is XYZ based off one litter. Also why would you put her through pregnancy/birth etc. unnecessarily? So yeah, YABU.

Collies need huge amounts of exercise and stimulation. There's a reason as you've said that generally a rescue wouldn't rehome one with young children. Many of your puppies would likely end up bored, crated or put to sleep due to biting a young child. Would you be rigourously health testing both dogs? Where would you find the perfect temperament dog to breed her with? Why put her through it? Would you take back all puppies throughout their lives if the new owners circumstances changed?

Another ridiculously named mongrel, just what the world needs.

Seriously! Have you seen how many dogs are in shelters waiting for homes. A litter of 6 pups was dumped in the hedge not far from me earlier this week. Several ex breeding bitches have been picked up by the dog warden, in an absolutely dreadful state. Used to generate cash for some utter scumbag then thrown away like rubbish when they’re no longer useful. People like you are part of this problem.

But as already stated the difficulty is that many rescues are completely resistant to homing dogs unless they meet a whole range of rigid criteria. For many good, decent and potentially great dog owners getting a puppy is their only option.

OP go for it and frankly there’s nothing inherently wrong with making some profit, it looks like exceedingly hard work raising a litter of puppies.

Ask in The Dog House not AIBU, OP.

“Tofty sheepdog” 😂😂😂

Absolute bullshit.
I was asked to take in an unwanted litter of this exact cross just a few days ago. Mum is to a beautiful rough collie, pups look to be shorter haired but who knows what they'll be like.
Rough collies and their crosses are in no way in short supply. There are also more nice collies around than anyone wants - they're not all hardcore herding neurotics.

I think it's normally spelled 'plough' in British English. Not that it matters, but just to answer your question.

To answer the OP, why do we need more alternatives to the already existing dog breeds that are good with families etc?

I come from a family that breeds dogs (reputable and responsible breeders of chamions, not byb). Here are some things that might happen. Think carefully if you are prepared to deal with them, because these are very real possibilities.

I'm going to strongly advise anyone woth a weak stomach to stop reading this comment right now.

1. Your dog decides she doesn't like the stud. She decides this halfway through the breeding, when she is already "tied" to him and can't get away. She panics, whips her head around and bites him in the side of the face, ripping his cheek and lip. He responds sby sinking his teeth into her eye.

1. A puppy gets stuck in the birth canal. It dies there, and it blocks the way out for all.the other puppies. They die inside their mother, who us still actively laboring trying to push them out. There is pretty much no way to transport a laboring dog to the vet to have the dead puppies removed, so she dies in pain as well.

1. Your dog decides to reach down and pull a puppy out of herself by the head. She pulls too hard and bites the head off. Alternatively, as she is biting off the umbilical cords, she misjudges the place and disembowels them.

1. Everybody is born fine, but the mother rejects them. You have to bottle feed them every two hours for weeks, including at night. You need to manually stimulate their bladder and bowels so the can relieve themselves. You need to regulate their body temperature, and just holding them yourself is not going to do it because puppies need to be kept warmer than human body temperature; you and all your family members spend hours holding puppies on hot water bottles.

1. Everybody is born fine, and the mother seems fine with them. One day, possibly weeks after the birth, you enter their area to find your dog calmly eating one puppy as it bleeds to death from its wounds. The partially eaten carcass of another puppy is beside her.

Breeding is EXTREMELY risky and messy. The only reason it should be undertaken is as a responsibility to the breed; if both dogs are of such sterling quality that it is a service to the breed to blend their genetics. Even in that situation, you need to accept the very high possibility of injury and death. It's not something to be taken lightly.

@BeeKeeping I am sorry to say the more you post with justifications of why your plan is a good one, it highlights why, from your OP onwards it is not a good one.

So you breed a cross breed and your bitch is in whelp, are you prepared for the following:

The bitch dies during birth or you lose some or all the puppies whilst whelping?
The bitch requires a section in the middle of the night and results in a very large vet bill?
The bitch develops mastitis and therefore you need to hand rear the entire litter?
You cannot find homes for all the puppies.
The pups all go to their homes, but for whatever reason the new owners wish to return them at any point during their lifetime.
The pups develop a health issue and the new owners expect you to pay for any treatment.

I could go on.

In answer to your question about cockerpoos etc - no I do not think there should be ever more creation of these cross breeds. They were originally created by the Guide Dogs and Hearing Dogs to devlop a type of dog for specific needs.

Pedigrees or crossbreeds cannot be defined into which are more healthy or have better dispositions - it is too much of a generalisation.

It is a foolhardy suggestion on your part, whether you are being egged on by the original breeder or not you should not breed any litter.

I'd register with the council- although not technically required to because it's only if you have a certain number of litters.

There are many testable common diseases in collies CEA MDR1 DM etc and toftys are genetically clear of the genes that cause these (due to careful selection by original breeder). I'd like to continue this work. My last dog was a purebred German shepherd who we adored but she died at only 9 with CDRM - had I known then about genetic testing we wouldn't have picked that breeder.

It was the rigorous genetic testing that drew me to this breed. I may be wrong in presuming that generally crossbreeds are healthier.

In the UK it is plough. Plow is not an Enlish spelling

You are being v v v unreasonable. There is absolutely NO reason for a supposedly “experienced” breeder of rough collies to create some stupid made-up name for cross-bred puppies, jumping on the ridiculous bandwagon for crosses with alleged advantages over the core pure breed. If she cares about the breed it’s the very last thing she’d do, but I suppose she’s motivated by the crazy money people pay for these designer crosses. I despair.

I’d rather you just outright say you could use the cash rather than frame it as a moral mission to get the breed numbers up 😄

Registering with the council is a red flag, making me think you will go on and breed multiple times.

If you wish to support genetic testing and health of breeds then donate to those breeds and societies who are doing it, breeding and creating cross breed litters does not help when there are already too many other people doing the same thing.

Wouldn’t it be better then for your breeder to have bred her genetically clear dog with another genetically disease free rough collie to improve the health status of the actual breed rather than trying to invent a new ‘designer ‘ dog . The more you reply the more this sounds like a money making scheme . I also agree with the pp that it sounds like you are the one trying to create this new breed and get it exposure .

But that's not true! I think the least that commenters could do is take me at my word- even if I can't spell plough...

Of course it's a terrible idea if someone is lying about their intentions- my question is is it still a bad idea if the motivation is genuinely to promote this cross.

Does everyone feel this way about cockapoos? Families looking for an easy breed good with kids easy coat? Surely all breeds are a combination of something at some point? The benefits of a pedigree are are more predictable in looks and temperament but it's not an exact science and crossbreeds do tend to be significantly healthier which I think is a significant plus.

People are finding out that cockapoos aren't all they're made out to be. They don't all have easy coats. Some are highly strung because of their poodle traits and also highly active because of their spaniel heritage, so they are a nervous nightmare.

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2024-01-03/nations-favourite-dog-breed-is-fast-becoming-one-of-the-hardest-to-rehome Incidentally there has been an explosion of Labradors entering rescues. Often at the ages of 6-18 months - people think they are buying a ready made dog, put no effort into training, then have an unruly, boisterous, big dog. Our Labrador puppy is almost 7 months old and has been having daily training since we got her at 8 weeks, plus 13 weeks (so far) of classes, trick training workshops, sniffer dog workshops, etc. It takes time and commitment to raise a well rounded dog.

It doesn't sound like your breeder has established a line of 'Toftys' and I wouldn't want to be the one responsible for the puppy that inherited all the bad traits of each breed (and there will be some) so it's a no from me.

I think cockerpoos are the fucking devil come to earth. Cute with a short coat, people think they make good family pets, when in reality they are in the main a tricky mix of high drive, intelligent and slightly neurotic making them difficult little dogs. Their only redeeming feature is that they are small enough to mean their bad manners aren’t often a dangerous problem.

Too many people breeding unproven dogs with unknown lines which mean families become overwhelmed and then end up abandoning dogs in shelters.

it sounds like the lady you brought your dog from is a bit of a farmer who puts bitches out to families and then encourages them to breed so she can take a cut without having to house lots of bitches. She hasn’t created a breed, she’s an absolute chancer.