AIBU to think that love and relationship success is largely due to luck?

[Shakespearesister]

Definitely bitter and biased here but bare with me…

Im almost 40, 3 small children and my long term relationship is falling apart.
There are a multitude of reasons why but it got me thinking about all my friends who are in happy marriages and relationships.

Lots of them are in similar positions to me, with awful, selfish men who don’t want to grow up, debt issues, wanting to get drunk/take drugs far too often, lazy and not sharing the household chores/mental load.
These are lovely, moral, intelligent women... they deserve more.

I also have friends who are with wonderful men who put them first, do their fair share, act like adults and are hands on parents, look after their wives and kids and our family first. (Sadly, there are very much in the minority.)
I get that some women stay too long with idiots (like me) and that’s on them, but AIBU to think that a lot of time, the people we end up with is just luck/bad luck?

I had no way of knowing what kind of father my partner would be when we met, he was attentive, generous and kind but has slowly become a monster.
No one can foresee addiction issues, potential infidelity etc years in the future.

AIBU to think some people just get lucky in love? Or is this to simplistic.

I'm exactly the same. I'm certain my background actually helped me have firmer boundaries, but it also meant I was cynical about romance/relationships/happy-ever-afters from the very start. It also made me selfish, in the sense that after getting out of my childhood, I have aimed to spend the freedom of adulthood focusing on building a life where I largely do what I please. The idea of spending any of it - any of this one life I have - in a relationship that doesn't bring me happiness just feels wasteful, I guess.

People think I’m lying but we’ve had maybe 4 serious arguments in nearly 20 years and disagree about small things frequently but are able to talk properly very easily.

I certainly wouldn't assume you're lying..
Truth be I've been with my DH over 40 years and had only 2 run in's, very few disagreements, bit of tutting and eye rolling but nothing major.

Decent men are definitely out there.

@HollyKnight I deliberately married a man who is the polar opposite of my Dad. My Dad isn’t as awful as your parents were, but his behavior still made my Mum’s life very difficult.

So I agree that sometimes you do learn what to avoid.

I agree, except I don't think it is at all selfish to live a life that pleases you (as long as it doesn't involve hurting others to do it obviously). There is no reward at the end of it all. No medal for being a martyr or sacrificing your own comfort or happiness. We get one life. Why waste it being miserable.

Oh I agree with that - I just meant that in many ways I am the "selfish husband" who's a stock hate figure on here. I prioritise the things I like doing - hobbies, socialising, quite a bit of hedonism - and don't feel much need to change myself to suit a man, and certainly not to reassure them of anything. Any partner has pretty much had to take me as I am. I found someone who does - and I take him as he is, too.

I've seen this with women in their mid 20s- early 30s yes- the moment the first one of them gets engaged and plans to settle down and have children, the race seems to be on, and the others panic and follow suit with either whoever they happen to be with at that moment or the next man they can find, as not to "miss out" or "fall behind", and no one wants to be the "last one standing". Also, it's not at all about the man or their relationship at all- it's all about the engagement ring, the wedding, the house and the babies (espcially the babies in most cases- 100% agree with PPs) and, nowdays, showing it all off on SM, all for the approval of their social circle or society. The man is just a necessity to make those things happen and they very rarely choose wisely as their judgement is so clouded (the men are almost always nothing at all to write home about, some of them even clearly horrendous). I'm so glad I never bought into all of that, and all of these women are now either miserable and stuck with useless men who they can't or won't leave, or are divorced and back in the dire dating market with 3/4 kids in tow and having a miserable time of it.

To answer the question, in these cases it's not luck but in fact desperation and anxiety

@KimberleyClark exactly what I was trying to get across in my post: The man is just a vessel to achieve the woman's dream of children, a wedding etc. So basically just using them and/or making poor choices of partners. Once those babies come along, the man is, as you say, surplus to requirements, ignored and discarded, or simply kept around to help pay the mortgage and bills/finance her to be a SAHM

I agree OP, finding the right partner is purely down to luck. And I say this as a woman about to celebrate their Pearl Wedding.

I am not sure people think it's necessarily easy to change such behaviours. But it's the only way to improve things, so it's about the only advice you can give someone.

A lot of the shitty relationships I see around me, both partners have real issues. It's not just the men by any stretch.

In my work I see a certain amount of this too, the women tend to be looking for support, financially but also sometimes more like protection, and the way they engage is manipulative. The men are exploitative. Both seem to lie quite a bit.

@ChilliPB exactly!

I think there's a huge amount of luck involved. A lot of the things that put a marriage under strain are bad luck. The economic climate, job loss, health issues, fertility problems, bereavement. Then there's the good look in choosing a partner who retains the qualities they had when you met them, and continues to love and value you, doesn't tire of you or meet someone they prefer to you. There's obviously a lot you can do to stack the odds in your favour, avoid red flags, work at the relationship and so on, but ultimately you have I think only a 50/50 chance of your relationship lasting? If there's no bad luck involved there must an awful lot of bad decision making.

I think there is a certain amount of luck involved, but it's not as significant as upbringing (and other formative experiences) and personality type. How else do you explain the women who get rid of one terrible, abusive man only to end up with another one? I'd imagine their fathers have a hell of a lot to answer for in most cases...

What are we classing as a great relationship though?
I know for a fact that many many women ( and a few men) have stuck with very abusive men. They remained married to them until their dying day.
To the outside world they had met their ‘perfect match.’ But in reality this was far from the truth.
2 of my ex’s had violent fathers. These men beat their wives, spoke to them, and treated them like a piece of shit. Both will stay with their men until they die.
Again they would probably say to outsiders they have a good marriage. I only know different because their sons told me the truth.
Other relationships break down even though one party is happy. Sometimes the other just wants to leave.
I don’t think there are many first time around truly happy relationships. The number of blended families proves that point.
It is hard to be alone. Doing things alone. I think a lot of people want more than the other one wants to give. I finished it with an ex because he wanted full on commitment and I didn’t. I was happy to be exclusive but I didn’t want to live with him 100% of the time. He wanted marriage.
I have a friend and she found the same thing.
It’s complicated.

I do sometimes sit and ponder why it's mainly women that post on here re men being abusive/controlling/shit fathers etc yet it's women that bring these men into the world and in the main bring them up.

To be honest, I think thats its unrealistic to think that men will view household jobs the same as women.
Just a example : there are signs in a local public toilet say ' Warning, these toillets are serviced by Male cleaners' these toilets were constructed with a section in the sink area with a 'seat' for nursing mothers. The actual cubicles are FILTHY and never clean.....I rest my case.

When you wrote this, did you have in your head a more complex line of argument that leads from your example to your initial assertion that you didn’t type out? Because what you’ve written does not work.

Arts, films, books, tv etc have all conspired to make people think love is important when actually having shared values is.

And women too, not just men.

Let’s not kid ourselves.

In my experience my sons’ wives changed too. One covered her issues whilst dating, because for religious reasons, she didn't want sex before marriage and then confessed to me during her marriage that she was only interested in sex to have a baby and hated every aspect of it. Made for a very difficult marriage and a rejected male.

The most balanced, open and honest relationship is the male partner of my gay son.

There's always going to be a little bit of luck but mostly it could be prevented.

Look at his parents. Most people turn out like their parents. Or older siblings.

Or fully discuss issues before marriage- who does the chores, who stays home when the DCs are sick, who moves for whose career, family money, sex, parenting styles, social lives post parenting.

Past behaviour predicts future behaviour.

If he's a party goer pre DCs he is likely to continue after.

Etc etc

Our parents and upbringing impact what we look for in our own romantic relationships, so in that sense it's down to luck.

I think a woman who is financially independent, saw her dad play an active role, had a strong support network, clear boundaries etc. would very rarely go for the deadbeats described here on MN.

Meanwhile another woman who comes from an unstable home, perhaps had previous abusive relationships, struggles to make ends meet, and lives far away from family could miss the warning signs.

Or could also be a woman who naively thinks it could never happen to her might miss red flags while a woman who has been burned before would be extra cautious.

Whichever it is, not sure I'd describe that as luck. More a consequence of personality and circumstance.

I do agree that men don't necessarily change, but the circumstances around them do (eg more responsibility, family etc) and that can reveal character traits that weren't so obvious before.

If I was talking to younger self now, I would say- you met his family. You thought something was off. It was. The Apple usually doesn't fall far from the tree. And look especially at what his relationship is like with his mother

I also always wonder, when I see posts that outline a man's many varied faults over the course of several paragraphs but then end "but I still love him"... what do these posters think love is? Are they mistaking it for lust? Protection? Codependence? Because to me, thinking someone is a great person is a prerequisite for love. If I thought someone was selfish, abusive etc, I wouldn't love them.

This is true and actually I've known more men who've made terrible romantic choices than women. They do it for similar reasons - desperation, fear of being alone, desire for social status and very often just plain lust.

The thing is people who are motivated by those things will often find each other (that or they'll find an abusive manipulator who senses their vulnerability). Which obviously isn't a great recipe for a healthy relationship.

Far too many people, men and women, would rather be in a shitty relationship with literally anyone who'll have them than be alone. I really don't know how they get like that.

Obviously it's partly luck. But I think the best way of avoiding marrying an arsehole is being willing to be single for a looong time, potentially forever, rather than settle for someone who shows even the tiniest signs of being a potential arsehole. And realising you don't owe any man a single date, never mind sex or a relationship. The luck element lies in how much of a natural good judge of character you are, and in the relationships and expectations you've had modelled to you growing up. And of course in whether many decent men cross your path.