AIBU to think that love and relationship success is largely due to luck?

[Shakespearesister]

Definitely bitter and biased here but bare with me…

Im almost 40, 3 small children and my long term relationship is falling apart.
There are a multitude of reasons why but it got me thinking about all my friends who are in happy marriages and relationships.

Lots of them are in similar positions to me, with awful, selfish men who don’t want to grow up, debt issues, wanting to get drunk/take drugs far too often, lazy and not sharing the household chores/mental load.
These are lovely, moral, intelligent women... they deserve more.

I also have friends who are with wonderful men who put them first, do their fair share, act like adults and are hands on parents, look after their wives and kids and our family first. (Sadly, there are very much in the minority.)
I get that some women stay too long with idiots (like me) and that’s on them, but AIBU to think that a lot of time, the people we end up with is just luck/bad luck?

I had no way of knowing what kind of father my partner would be when we met, he was attentive, generous and kind but has slowly become a monster.
No one can foresee addiction issues, potential infidelity etc years in the future.

AIBU to think some people just get lucky in love? Or is this to simplistic.

What a sensible comment. It isn't victim blaming to point this out. Being treated badly is of course the fault of the man. No one is disagreeing with that or letting men off the hook.

But allowing that behaviour to continue by staying largely is a choice. Women are worth more and shouldn't put up with less.

I think a pp point about being friends first and observing behaviour is spot on. I moved in with DH after 5 months. In normal circumstances this is far too quick and with anyone else I wouldn't have.

But I had known him for 12 years at this point and we had been great friends for the majority of that time. Living with him didn't expose anything I didn't already know.

But had it done, I would have ended it, not married and had children with him. That isn't luck, it was a series of choices.

I know everyone's different but in my case I was 18, he was mid 20s, and I just didn't have enough experience of men to really know what red flags to look for. I was used to besotted schoolboys. He set about early on convincing me that his behaviour was legitimate and that I didn't know adult relationship rules. His bursts of anger were not his fault, and so on. But the flags were (to me at least) always just below the surface and hard to pinpoint - subtly ruining important days, being controlling by sulking, that sort of thing. Bigging himself up while putting me down, for years. Told me I couldn't tell friends or family about our arguments because that's not right in adult relationships, and to my shame I believed this until I was in my late 20s, even then just told my best friend.

Now I look back and I can see the flags and the patterns that were precursors for what was to come. Now, with experience, when my friend tells me her DP punches a hole in the door in an argument I tell her to leave because when she has DC he'll hit her too. But I just didn't know back then, and of course after DC the facade broke completely and he turned into someone who would scream and swear at me, call me awful names, push me into walls, shove into me, break things to in anger. I didn't have enough experience to realise that the one would lead to the other.

I also think in my case I was unlucky to have come from the "stay together for the kids" type of dysfunctional family and I genuinely didn't know what a loving relationship looked like. We were an insular family with no real relationship role models in the extended family, and I just didn't know what a healthy loving relationship looks like.

So anyway, I think there's lots of reasons why women don't spot the flags that seem obvious to others. Now they're obvious to me too, and wouldn't fall for it again. But that knowledge has cost me fifteen years of my life.

The pure chance that your parents are both great and model what a good relationship looks like, as opposed to growing up in a single parent household with an absent father. This will cloud your desire, judgement and thought process. How do you know what good looks like when it has never been modelled to you.

I'm not sure about this. DH’s parents were not a model of a happy marriage . They stayed together because they were devour Catholics and divorce out of the question. But my DH always realised their relationship wasn’t normal and was determined not to be like them. We’ve been married nearly 34 years.

This type of attitude is actually really messed up.

the idea that being good at choosing a partner is an evolutionary thing is nonsense and is thinly veiled victim blaming.

from a scientific perspective it doesn’t make sense as it doesn’t stop people having kids.

what about women in Afghanistan or Iran? Are they all idiots who choose sexist pigs? Should they wait for a feminist man?

some people have a better idea of what ‘good’ looks like because their fathers or other male role models have been good men. Many others have been brought up normalising sexist and borderline abusive behaviour in the relationships around then, so the red flags don’t show up so much.

a lot of our decision making is unconscious and is based on us looking for the ‘familiar’

No, it's not victim blaming. It's empowering for women to believe that they have power over their own destiny and aren't completely beholden to luck.

I believe we have evolved as a species to have an ability to read other people and identify red flags. Some call it gut instinct, some call it intuition but we all know exactly what I'm talking about and it is obviously pretty vital to our survival. I think some people have a really good radar for bad eggs either through genetic chance or through their upbringing and life experience. Some people just aren't as good as picking up on the warning signs that seem obvious to other people. We all have strengths and weaknesses and for some people this just isn't their strength. They therefore are much more susceptible to choosing bad partners that other women would avoid. It's not their fault but it obviously isn't something that's good for them or their children so it obviously would be a good idea to work on this for their own sake.

We aren't talking about women in other cultures with more limited choices. This thread is obviously about women in this country that have more autonomy over their lives and choices then women in Afghanistan etc. I'm also not saying that a woman's upbringing couldn't impact their ability to spot the bad men as of course it could, but that doesn't mean that these women are forever predetermined to keep choosing bad partners due to 'bad luck'.

I think some people on this thread are simplifying things far too much with the argument that the woman just didn’t see the red flags / warnings / signs or that she had poor relationships modelled to her.

With women who have experienced relationships with addicts, they will know that addicts become experts in deception, manipulation and most importantly - concealing the addiction.

In my mid-20s, I was in a relationship with a man who turned out to have a porn addiction. He was a lovely, charming man on the surface. Our sex life was fine, there were no red flags in terms of his sexual appetite or preferences. He was a student at the time, so often stayed up until the small hours ‘doing assignments’. Unbeknownst to me, these ‘assignments’ were actually watching copious amounts of porn for hours at a time. But seriously, who would suspect that? I only happened upon it by chance when he forgot to erase his browser history one day and it popped up! It was only after I discovered the addiction that he became nasty, I assume because he felt shame and didn’t want it to be exposed.

With the easy accessibility of the internet on phones, access to porn, gambling, other women etc has become so easy. It’s also become so much easier to hide. Gone are the days when someone would spot your boyfriend / husband sneaking out of BetFred, instead it’s all done secretly online. It’s much easier to cover your tracks when you can just delete internet history, close the browser or even in the cases of some of my friends, have another secret phone entirely!

I don’t think it’s always the woman being naive or just not seeing the red flags or having poor relationships modelled by their own parents. It’s clearly not as simplistic as that.

It’s not down to luck. Its priorities. My friends who married crap men generally did so because they wanted to settle down/have kids/buy a house earlier and so did that with the man that was available at that time. Many of them knew what he was like but chose to ignore. The ones that had higher standards and prioritised that, ended up with much better men.

Very true. Some decent men find themselves in a relationship with women who just want children, and once they have them the man is surplus to their emotional requirements.

Oh, that's missing a lot of context - I know for example my ex would probably accuse me of that, but the truth from my side is that my emotional requirements expanded to include the kids, and his didn't - in retrospect he's too selfish to be a father, but it didn't become clear until our second child when I needed more from him and he couldn't imagine putting the kids or me above his wants and he saw that as me withdrawing affection - when actually, it was that he stopped including himself in my affection because it wasn't dedicated to him alone.

He genuinely seemed to think that we just packed ourselves into a wardrobe on pause when he wasn't there - so yeah,

I didn't. I didn't want kids or a house, I was young and happy to have a good time. I had the right priorities, I genuinely didn't recognise the flags.

@Rard I don’t think it’s always the woman being naive or just not seeing the red flags or having poor relationships modelled by their own parents. It’s clearly not as simplistic as that
I think it almost always comes down to women's ability to read men and their behaviour combined with the standards that the women have set for their partners.

Even the most skilled manipulator will have 'tells' that can be accurately read and interpreted by the most skilled psychologists. The problem is that we all have different abilities to read people and unfortunately the most manipulative people will gravitate to those who don't interpret their behaviour in an accurate way and can therefore be fooled. They also of course like women that know full well what is going on but have chosen to turn a blind eye to these defects for whatever reason.

So in your situation, the cues may have been subtle but they were still there. The amount of late night working for one, could have arisen suspicion alongside other 'tells' that were probably so small that they probably didn't even register at all. I'm not saying you were stupid or gullible by the way but just that I imagine you will now be more aware of what you look for in your next relationship and probably wouldn't be tricked by a similarly deceptive man.

It hard to write posts like this without sounding like I'm trying to shame women or imply they have missed something obvious which isn't the case. Instead I think it's important to acknowledge that there are some incredibly manipulative people out there and most of us will encounter them in some capacity in our lives. We all could do with working on our skills in terms of identifying red flags early on and spotting the very subtle signs that could easily pass us by. This is much more useful than saying that we are just unlucky if we encounter one of these people as I would bet good money that almost everyone will have the misfortune of coming across someone like this at some point.

I was the crap partner. I was a walking red flag. I drank too much, I did not emotionally regulate well, I self medicated for clinical depression, I acted self destructively when I was drunk, I self harmed, I was unfaithful, I lied a lot, I was unreliable, I was selfish, I engineered dramatic arguments, I always had one foot out of my relationships, I was shit with money. I can blame some of it on childhood sexual abuse trauma but I was stuck in this pattern as an adult because it served me, it was comforting to me because it was familiar and at some points I loved not giving a shit about anyone and getting to live a 'rock and roll' lifestyle. Yes, I was that pathetic.

I had awful relationships (one where I was a victim of severe DV), that resulted in 3 DC being brought along for the ride who never asked to be born. The worst act I have ever done. I ultimately ended up in that position because I didn't or couldn't help myself. I had no self awareness, self knowledge and couldn't reflect at all. People fail to realise that it's not fair to impose yourself on others if you can't relate properly. It is hard if you find yourself in a relationship with someone like the old me, I was clever, conniving and good at grooming partners.

If I didn't change my personality, set patterns and the way I related to myself and others I knew I wouldn't be a good mother so I did years of self work to be a different person who can relate to others and not put them through shit. Being a mother was my most important relationship so I changed for that, for my children. I needed to relate better for them. I refused to impose myself on others relationship wise until I was safe enough not to damage people. That was on me, not them. I genuinely believe that even if you'd had the healthiest upbringing it would have been hard to see that I was terrible at relating initially until I'd manipulated you into a commitment you felt you couldn't leave. I wouldn't blame them for not having a radar or seeing my red flags because I covered them up, intentionally. Accountability lies with the people who don't protect others from themselves. Not the people who fail to realise what they are dealing with.

It requires a bit of luck or a miracle to find love.

However, once you are in a relationship, it requires a lot of effort and hard work from both sides. Some people give up on marriages too easily, without trying to understand each other, have empathy, or have good communication. For example, I chose my battles, I don't fight for minor things; of course, talk about it but don't overreact. I've seen many women fighting all the time for minor things.

As in my experience, the people who broke up or ended up bad were generally because they chose not to see the red flags, e.g. drinking, drugs, years younger, lazy, man was a flirt, etc.

I agree some people may change during the marriage but it's a minority from what I've seen; although, its frustrating to see the amount of time that the women stay with the hope he will change back. I think that in any type of abuse there's no going back and women should stay away as soon as it happens.

It’s the pseudo science here that is ridiculous.

and your argument makes no sense and is contradictory.

If some people have ‘evolved’ to have a really good radar ( and others haven’t) then aren’t you saying that it IS predetermined?!

As I pointed out, spotting red flags is learned behaviour. We can all learn how to spot them.

but the luck comes in when we consider people’s opportunity to learn. If you’ve been surrounded by poor role models and/or have few resources or options then you are more likely to accept what there is on offer.

it’s like learning to read - we all have varying aptitudes. But if you’re never given the chance to learn, then your chances of being a good reader are much slimmer. Relationship skills are much the same- not everyone has the best environment to learn what good looks like.

my point about Afghanistan is that our environment and opportunities massively affect our choices. That’s where the luck comes in. Blaming people for the circumstances they were born in is victim blaming.

I actually think it's much more about boundaries than luck.

It gets more complicated though when you examine why some people have healthy boundaries and expectations and don't put up with poor treatment in relationships. That's where the luck comes in - if you had a stable and healthy upbringing and a strong sense of self then maybe you are at an advantage. Those things are luck rather than judgement.

It gets more complicated again when you think that some people @Rangelife like you - who take what they are dealt and work their arses off to change things.

@Bumpitybumper Have you been in a relationship with an addict before? Not trying to be facetious, it’s a genuine question.

Late night working as a student is definitely not a ‘tell’. Most, if not all, students often work late into the night, especially around the time that assignments are due. I got through essays on caffeine and pro plus fuelled night binges, as did most of my friends!

My family, friends and perhaps more importantly, his family and friends, were all dumbfounded when his porn addiction came to light. I simply cannot believe that we all failed to identify the red flags or missed the ‘cues’.

The only thing I have learnt is that often you cannot identify addiction, especially if the addiction has been going on for some years. I don’t think I’ve got better at spotting the red flags, I’m just no longer naive to the fact that these people exist, and probably in greater quantities than we think.

I have never had a relationship with an addict but I had a very good friend and housemate who had an eating disorder and I really do understand what you're saying about the difficulty of identifying an issue when someone is actively working to deceive you. This is especially true if you have never encountered anything like this before and don't really know what red flags you're supposed to be looking for. Her partner, friends and family didn't know anything about the ED until a mutual friend that had a history of an ED spent more time with her and spotted the incredibly subtle signs and raised the alarm.

I suppose my point is that to me and lots of other people in her life we would protest that there were no signs but in retrospect there must have been for the other friend to identify what was going on. Now my understanding of the issue is much better and I do think some of the things she was doing e.g. wearing baggy clothes, talking about food a lot, would be a red flag if I noticed them in my daughter even though they are all considered relatively 'normal' things to do amongst young people.

No. Compatibility of course is major but you have to work at it and look after each other. Be best friends as well, be kind etc etc. Lot more to a relationship than luck.

I think we often choose to minimise red flags and make big decisions too quickly

I met my ex at age 27, married at 30 and didn't have our first child till 33. Is that too quick?

Red flags is more complex. I agree we probably minimise to a level. I think in my case, I listened to what my ex said but didn't take enough notice of what he did - they was always something of a mismatch but it wasn't like I ignored him being angry at me, he never hit me, never showed any violent tendencies. But we did live with quite a tense atmosphere and a lot of annoyance - only realised once he'd left. It was so much easier when he left, despite the heartbreak.

And abuse is frequently slow burning - it doesn't happen overnight. And it often only starts when a woman is pregnant.

@Bumpitybumper Maybe so, but it’s only when you had experience of ED that you noticed the ‘tells’ with hindsight. We cannot reasonably expect women to intuitively know the ‘tells’ of porn addictions, gambling, cheating… to name but a few. That’s why I am arguing that there are certain instances where there were ‘no red flags’ - at least ones that are not discernible to the average person. It’s telling that in your case, it took someone with experience of ED to spot the signs.

I also think it’s easier for people to believe that their husband could never be an addict or have a secret life because they are so good at spotting the ‘signs’, rather than accepting that there is every chance that they could be being lied to.

It's not luck, it's a combination of good judgement, firm boundaries, good communication and patience.

@VitaminDneeded @GatherlyGal

Yes, I agree that luck in the sense of your upbringing is very relevant.

Of course, you can say that about every possible outcome. "AIBU to say that being an athlete / successful / rich / famous / hard working / thoughtful is about luck" because everything is as a result of genes or nurture.

It's not intended to be blaming people to say that it is not a total matter of chance when you marry someone whether they will turn out to be a good partner.

Of course, whether you have the skills to spot red flags may well be due to personal circumstances. Ideally, we would live in a world in which there were higher standards set for men, so that it would be easier to weed out the bad behaviour.

I do think it's partly luck. I dated a lot of losers and probably would have eventually ended up married to one of them if fate hadn't intervened. I ended up taking a job abroad totally on a whim, two months in I met dh, who was completely not my type and not someone I would have dated in any other situation, but we hit it off and the rest is history. He is lovely and sensible and dependable and just the all-around ideal partner and co-parent. It was pure luck that I happened to be in the right place at the right time to meet him, yes.

But it was also up to me to know a good thing when I saw it and to prioritise the relationship. It took 3 years of immigration battles to even be in the same country again to start a life together. Never mind all the usual stuff that takes work in relationships. I'm very lucky to have met a good one along the way, but it wasn't just luck that made it all happen.

That said, the people I know in relationships with shitty men are not in them because they were unlucky. They're in them because they have low self-worth, poor boundaries and were happy to cling on to any walking red flag they saw passing by at the time. I'm thinking of two in particular and their now husbands literally told them who they were on day 1, like literally got out the court documents on their first date to show them (!!), but they believed they could change. They are still with them - more or less happily, though one is just waiting until he dies because she can't bring herself to divorce him - but have lost a lot of people in their lives and are quite isolated. They weren't unlucky. They just wanted to believe in in a fairy tale that wasn't real, so ignored everything that would have sent anyone else running for the hills.

I think its a bit of both.

I have 2 friends who married horrible men who were just completely lazy and just not good people. One of them was a very good friend of me, so i had a heart to heart with her when she got engaged. I never got invited to the wedding. When they finally got divorced she contacted me again. We are pretty close again now and she was so sorry for not listening. She said in hindsight most her friends told her they werent surprised, because hes such a twat, but i was the only one warning her beforehand. Friend 2 wasnt that close with me and i learnt my lesson. His bad habits just kept getting worse over the years.
Some women just marry bad or mediocre men hoping they will step up. Marriage often has the opposite effect though 🤷🏻‍♀️

It can also be bad luck though. Changes in circumstances or a stroke of fate can really change a person. And i dont think marrying a cheater is necessarily bad judgement. This can literally happen to anyone.

I, and I'm sure a lot of others here, had a horrendous childhood. Alcoholism. Anger. Abuse. Social services at the door. I learned from this, rather than repeated it. I never went for a man like my father. I never behaved like my mother. My boundaries are strong. I built a life where I don't need a man. And I'm only with the one I'm with because I want to be. I don't know why I have so much self-awareness, yet others seem to have very little. So I don't think it is correct to say poor upbringing causes people to have poor relationships as adults. There may be a correlation, but it is not the cause. I think personality plays a bigger part in it.

I do feel like this about women who marry men who already have children.
You can see what type of father he is.
Then why go on and marry the man and have children with him?
I think the Red flags are bellowing blood red flags by this stage.
You know he doesn’t spend much time with the existing dc. You know he will only pay maintenance through the CMS as they have made him.
Hell, he isn’t a good man.
And please don’t all pile on with the “It’s all his ex’s fault……blah blah blah.”
First marriages and first children I feel are different. There was nothing to go on.
You are the first so much harder to spot red flags.
I do blame the way society still pushes women into having children and being in a stable relationship.
It’s also very expensive to live alone, not everyone can afford it.