AIBU to think that love and relationship success is largely due to luck?

[Shakespearesister]

Definitely bitter and biased here but bare with me…

Im almost 40, 3 small children and my long term relationship is falling apart.
There are a multitude of reasons why but it got me thinking about all my friends who are in happy marriages and relationships.

Lots of them are in similar positions to me, with awful, selfish men who don’t want to grow up, debt issues, wanting to get drunk/take drugs far too often, lazy and not sharing the household chores/mental load.
These are lovely, moral, intelligent women... they deserve more.

I also have friends who are with wonderful men who put them first, do their fair share, act like adults and are hands on parents, look after their wives and kids and our family first. (Sadly, there are very much in the minority.)
I get that some women stay too long with idiots (like me) and that’s on them, but AIBU to think that a lot of time, the people we end up with is just luck/bad luck?

I had no way of knowing what kind of father my partner would be when we met, he was attentive, generous and kind but has slowly become a monster.
No one can foresee addiction issues, potential infidelity etc years in the future.

AIBU to think some people just get lucky in love? Or is this to simplistic.

This! It's always there, many just choose not to see it.

I think we're encouraged to not sweat the small stuff, and see a relationship as a team, but a lot of men just don't think that way - they are the main character and struggle to let go of that.

Which is greatly magnified once you have kids, and suddenly the small stuff is a mountain of small stuff, and the team is a lot bigger and more demanding, so the non-team-player-ness becomes crystal clear and a massive problem. Then if you split, it's an even bigger problem, because he'll treat it all as an attack.

Or at least, that's what happened to me.

I think we need to teach girls to be more discerning, to protect themselves (eg. by keeping earning, rather than sacrificing so much for the family), and to be prepared (and able) to walk away rather than suffer.

Left turn for my post, but it's what I really like about Taylor Swift - she knows her worth, and clearly walks away when something isn't right.

Oh, and men can change - especially where drugs are involved. Steroids and cocaine turned mine from a self-absorbed, but likeable person to a cold, malicious bastard.

Yep.

My friends who married lovable dickheads are now just married to plain old dickheads.

I do think meeting a good man you are compatible with in the first place with is sheer luck but i was prepared to be alone indefinitely if i didnt meet someone great.

I remember being out with 4 friends at lunch.. they were commiserating a 5th friend laura who just had a 2nd baby with her useless DH.
One said how "lucky" we were to have such good DHs.
I told her it i didnt agree. It wasnt luck, it was by design. Laura knew he was useless and married him anyway. We actively selected men who would make good husbands and fathers. She thought about it and agreed.

The reality is the 4 of us all have good, kind, hardworking, family-oriented husbands who are still imperfect in random ways... and who laura would describe as "boring bastards" and "betas". Her dh is tall, objectively good looking and v arrogant and not a good husband or father.

95% + of the time you know these guys are going to be crap its not a surprise.

I have a great skill of being able to work people out very early on. I can sniff out bullshit from a mile away.

My first two relationships were at a time in my life when I was vulnerable and I made bad choices. Those men revealed what they were almost immediately (albeit whilst on their best dating behaviour) but I chose to ignore the red flags, consciously or unconsciously. Guess what happened?!

My third relationship was different. I was older, more confident and listened to my gut. I'm now with the most amazing man and couldn't ask for more.

Maybe the answer is that some people have the ability to sniff this stuff out and some people don't? People, objectively speaking don't change their character but I guess external factors (the grind of life, new babies, work stress etc) can bring out the worst in people.

This thread is really thought provoking and this post is spot on. The was an interesting guy on the ‘Diary of a CEO’ podcast the other day, who started Tinder and had read lots of research about what makes a good relationship. -there were three things but the the first was precisely this. If both partners meet at a time when they gave positive stuff-esteem and stability, and friendship circle the relationship is more likely to last because they aren’t just grabbing at anything to try to fix something broken in them which leads to ignoring red flags.

I do think there is an element of luck yes. I think it's around timing though. I know of many couple who have separated recently who go swept up late 20s when everyone was getting married and had kids and did it because the timing was right, but not necessarily the person.

I'll admit I came from a broken home, saw many disasterous relationships from mum afterwards and that made me super picky and to want a marriage that wouldn't end in divorce. I waited for the perfect person for me and am very happily married at 15 years with 2 DC. In previous relationships I love them but had even told one DP not never propose as I knew I'd say no- he just wasn't good enough to marry (infidelity/lifestyle issues).

The belief that our personality and our character is set and cannot change is a bit outdated. There has been plenty of evidence and research to prove otherwise.

People’s personality or character can change over time as we age, from environmental influences, life experiences etc. Personality can change from major life events. A kind, decent person can morph into a monstrous and cruel person because of a head injury causing brain damage, from taking drugs, from some kind of traumatic experience, for getting involved with the wrong crowd (breaking bad).

And some people who were immature, selfish or lazy can over time and growing up become more mature, considerate of others and a motivated person who does their fair share (self improvement).

I think we can stretch the definition of 'luck' to make almost anything fit. It is luck if you are born with the innate ability to read people and spot red flags that others can't. It's luck that you have the kind of upbringing and role models that set expectations of partners high and prevent you from settling for less. It's luck if you don't have the strong biological urge to have children that will drive you to settle for a partner earlier in order to facilitate having babies. The list could go on...

Personally I don't think it's massively helpful or really accurate to say because the above are at play then people's experiences of love and relationships are defined by luck. Ultimately we are all born with a mixed hand of attributes and things outside our control will happen in our lives that can shape us but importantly we also have autonomy and self determination. Some women will see the poor fathers and partners that they grew up with and fight extra hard to make sure they don't end up with a man like this. Some women know that they are more susceptible to being manipulated and less able to naturally identify red flags so they do the work needed to improve this.

I also think some women need to believe it's luck because they think there is shame attached to accepting that they have made an avoidable mistake when choosing their partner. This absolutely shouldn't be the case as these men are manipulative and some women are for a variety of reasons easier targets for them. This isn't the woman's 'fault' but she would be wise to work on what she can to stop the same happening again and increase her chances of spotting the bad eggs at a much earlier stage.

I agree with a lot of what most have said - you can say luck is involved to an extent as some people just had a bunch of bad choices to choose from , whereas others had better options to begin with.

However many women do ignore red flags. For instance I was talking to a (very handsome ) guy I’d met online dating and just a casual chat in the app over one night revealed so many red flags about him I just unmatched the next day.

He asked me what his job was before telling me what his was and his wasn’t displayed on his profile like mine was . That made me suspect he was possibly looking for someone to live off - I told him but then asked what I did. He said he did “some painting work” for houses his brothers renovates as he had been made redundant last year. He didn’t seem to have a plan for what was next.

I then asked him did he live with his brother? And he did, he lived with his brother and nephew.

He seemed confused when I asked him why he hadn’t married his ex who he was with for 7 years.

He has a degree but worked in a manual Job completely unrelated to that. And I don’t mean a well paid trade like joinery etc And now he was talking about studying “e-commerce” at a “night school” which no doubt is self-funded and he probably won’t use.

He was personable and polite but he was ultimately not a good match for me due to his lack of focus, and ambition.
I can see he’s just someone who will float through life. I could just see him moving in with me and struggling to financially contribute while never proposing, plus never pulling his weight.

If we’re all honest with ourselves when we meet guys, ask the right questions and really think about reality vs potential it would be better for all of us. I get why women settle out of desperation for kids but personally I couldn’t knowingly give my kids a sub-par lazy dad so as loud as my clock is ticking I have to maintain my standards.
If I didn’t, it would weigh heavily on my conscience.

I think society really needs to address the issue of a lack of good responsible men who have their life together though, instead of this AT /red pill stuff which is making men even more awful.

I think a lot of relationships turn toxic due to the reluctance of one or both to admit that it has run its course. Children/finances keep people who shouldn't be together (love/respect has gone) and they spend years unhappily together, and then the bad behaviours begin and the blame game starts.

I think luck begins at the very start - meeting the one for you involves a little bit of luck.

Some women will see the poor fathers and partners that they grew up with and fight extra hard to make sure they don't end up with a man like this. Some women know that they are more susceptible to being manipulated and less able to naturally identify red flags so they do the work needed to improve this.

My mum has poor judgement and has never been able to admit this to herself even though it manifested in her choice of husband, jobs, course she wanted to study and various other life decisions. I worked very hard not to end up with her lack of discernment or to end up with a man (my father) like she did. From my teens I began to address my innate naivety, to the extent people around me now generally see me as “wise” and discerning.

I think most of the time the red flags are there, however subtle. Whether women notice them or choose to notice them is another matter.

In my case several women I know picked men despite subtle red flags (eg one dismissed the fact her DH once slept with a prostitute before their relationship began because he was young & naive….)

I could see the good eggs and the bad among my friends partners early on

I also know a few females who moan about being single but can’t see that they are massively hard work. Another friend is stupidly picky about looks etc despite being very average herself

However others have been unlucky eg friend who married a good man but he completely went off sex and wanted a sexless marriage . Was still a fab partner in other respects and a good dad

I have a long( +25) happy marriage but we got together when I was still a teen. Subconsciously I must have chosen to be with him for a reason but it wasn't in any way thought out. I came from a stable family, as did he, but we never consciously sort that out. I believe it is a combination of factors that keep us together, but I couldn't separate which are conscious, which not.

I feel that sometimes there's a bit of complacency and self congratulatory behaviour going on here. It's similar to those parents who have babies who eat well or sleep well and are sure it's because of them, of how well informed they were, of how they knew to do such and such a thing. Then sometimes they go on and have a second child and realise that actually there's a substantial element of "nature" rather than solely "nurture" involved in any outcome.

The life we are born into is what it is. Those who feel positive often feel it's been down to them, those who feel negative feel it's down to others. Probably there's an element of both.

It's not luck. Relationships are one of the things in our lives we have the most agency over but a lot of people don't use that agency - they bow to social pressure and family pressure, among other things.

Whether people can really change is a bit of a simplistic debate. Everyone evolves as a person thanks to life experiences, getting older etc, but most people retain their essential character. Am I the same person at 40 as I was at 20? Completely different in some ways, exactly the same in others. I've known people who've turned their lives around radically from addiction, depression etc. (Sadly also known people who spiralled into those things.) I think the key is that while people can change, it's only ever from within and never in the context of a relationship. You can't make them change.

But I think that's a red herring too in some ways, because whether you end up in a healthy relationship is less about your partner and more about your self-knowledge. We read a lot about red flags, raising your bar etc, but all those things are different for different people. We're not homogeneous and neither are men. You have to really be honest with yourself about what kind of relationship you want, what kind of partner you want; what behaviours are your red lines and what you can't tolerate. All of this is subjective.

I think a lot of people overlook their own subjective desires/turn-offs when their partner is objectively good on paper - good-looking, or a good earner, or a sensible family man. But those things aren't as important as compatibility - do you like to have the same sort of sex, do you share interests and values, do you have the same approach to sociability, do you have the same domestic standards, and if you don't share these things are you at least able to tolerate the other's differences? Compatibility isn't a moral or ethical judgment, it's simply: do I fit with this person?

And you shouldn't need to work all that out in the first few dates. Way too much emphasis is placed on sussing out red flags when you've only met someone a handful of times. But you need to be prepared to leave a relationship once incompatibility becomes clear. This is more common after a few years, often after you move in with them. But a lot of people give in to the sunk-cost fallacy and plough on until irritation and annoyance fester into resentment and hatred.

As a child-free woman it definitely seems to me that the desire for children is a significant factor in people I know making terrible relationship decisions and overriding what you want in a partner. And I know that not wanting children freed me up - to never enter into a relationship unless everything about it worked for me, and then to spend literal years assessing DP before properly committing to him.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I don’t think it’s luck so much as having certain privileges.
Such as:
The pure chance that your parents are both great and model what a good relationship looks like, as opposed to growing up in a single parent household with an absent father. This will cloud your desire, judgement and thought process. How do you know what good looks like when it has never been modelled to you.
Sure there are people who will work much harder to find a completely good fit in a partner, but that’s the issue, they have to try much harder.
How many times do we hear women with lots of children with unsuitable men say “I had a baby because I wanted someone to love.”
It’s very complicated.
I agree 100% that women who do not want children can afford to be far more picky,
I also think lots of people are oblivious to how abusive their partner is.
The way sone people speak to each other for example is appalling. Yet many people tolerate this. Their children live with this and think it is the correct way to speak to someone you love.
A clear example will be found on here in a few weeks; Mother’s Day. This place will be full of downtrodden women, treated like dog crap yet they are still will this vile men.

I think a lot of things in life are down to luck but many people don’t want to acknowledge that as it would make them seem less responsible for their good fortune.

I think a lot of things are down to choice but people dont want to accept that as then they have to take responsibility for their choices.

It may well be luck meeting the right or wrong man but staying with him, marrying, having children etc is a choice. Very few women are forced into these relationships.

When men aren’t good dads, they often haven’t been great friends especially over the small thankless stuff. Things like, do they help with washing up when there is a mixed group of friends? Do they equally help get ready when people are coming over? Do they take care of others when they aren’t well? Do they remember friends’ birthdays? At work, do they unload the dishwasher?

The issue seems to me that we have too low a bar for men in general outside of romantic or parenting relationships. It might be annoying that your male co-worker doesn’t ever go and get the milk but does it stop him getting a girlfriend and becoming a dad? Probably not. Will he be an equal partner? Probably not.

My ex husband changed but not for the better. It seemed like every minor negative trait he had when we were in our 20s suddenly became massive red flags once we were in our 40s with children

But conversely his behaviour in his 20s was not unlike my BIL and yet BIL has grown into being a grown up and grown out of the negative traits

So maybe luck who knows

Hard agree.

DH and I were friends a while before getting together.

I heard and saw what he was like. Cooking food for him mum in hospital, helping friends with boring tasks, doing housework whilst at home with parents, spoke about people kindly, generous with time, money and feelings.

Has basically been the same for 20 years.

Yup. I ignored some very clear indications early boyfriends were arseholes.

After a particularly bad experience I decided to get my head together before meeting anyone else.

Being treated badly wasn’t my fault, but it was obvious I would be treated badly by those men from the outset.

I think for me luck came into it in terms of timing. If I’d have met my DH at an earlier point in my life we probably wouldn’t have worked as a couple. But luckily I met him at a time where he was just what I needed, and I think the same is true for him too.

Let’s say woman A is in a relationship and he develops alcoholism but chooses to seek help and they work at it. woman B is in the same situation but her husband is in denial and spirals, how is that not bad luck?

That has nothing to do with luck and everything to do with the character of the alcoholic. I say that as the grateful wife of a recovering alcoholic.

Very true. Some decent men find themselves in a relationship with women who just want children, and once they have them the man is surplus to their emotional requirements.