AIBU to defend my daughter?

[stressedmummmm]

My daughter is 11 (12 in June) and she has been a handful to handle both at home and in school. She is starting to get into more and more trouble at school and I'm not sure what to do.

Recently she has gotten into trouble for googling her history teacher during class which the teacher. She's gotten an afterschool detention.

Previously she had gotten into trouble for being rude and combative to her very kind teacher. The teacher has said that negative consequences do not have an effect on her, and the sanction system fails her.

Another teacher has said she's so distributive in music class that the teacher has requested she be moved to another class as she didn't want to deal with her anymore.

At home, she will scream at me if she does not get what she wants. She is very rude to us all. She hits her brothers if they do not listen to what she tells them to do, for example, to turn their iPads down. She will scream if her food is not how she wants it. She will scream if I dont take her somewhere specific now.

She is very jealous of me hanging out with my friends or even speaking to them on the phone. If I go out with my friends she will call her father in tears saying I have abandoned them (we live close to my inlaws, and when I go out my inlaws kindly have the kids). She will also text my friends on my Instagram and tell them to not contact me/I don't want to speak to them.

Her father and I had a rough patch a few months ago and she was witness to a lot of the fighting. However, these behaviour issues are not new at all. Amid our fighting, she got into trouble at school. In the first term of the year, she had gotten (within two months) 25 negatives.

I lost my mum at 14. My stepmom was not kind, and she didn't like me. I ended up spending most weekends with my grandmother on my mum's side. As I got older I started spending more time away from my dad's house until I got married at 23, fresh out of uni. I think I tried to give my children as much love as possible, and I always try to show them I am on their side. Kind of us against the world. When my daughter gets into trouble I am the first to defend her, but it gets out of hand and the school has mentioned suspension and expulsion more than once. My children live a blessed life, they get everything they want. DD goes horse riding three times a week, and I am thinking of buying her a horse.

I am worried that I have raised a spoiled brat but that she also might be neurodiverse. Her brother has been diagnosed with ADHD, but he behaves much better and his issues were very apparent. Shes smart enough to be masking, but her behaviour is out of hand.

My friend tells me I need to become more harsh with discipline, and I should be punishing her more severely. Especially with the horseriding privileges. How should I do this? Please be kind, I am trying my best here.

I absoloutely would not take away the riding lessons. I work with children like your daughter and having a hobby is usually the main thing that keeps them out of more serious trouble.
I would remove all social media apps from her phone and set up family link so she can't put them back on. Limit her time on the Internet. Let her know now that if she is rude you, misbehaving at school etc then you will replace her phone with a Nokia brick.
No electronic devices in her room. Phone plugged in downstairs by 8pm on school nights and 9pm weekends.

I agree with you. My children have everything they want to the level we can afford, never went to school, don't have stuff taken away from them and live a care free life and they don't behave in the way the op s daughter does.

Op I would start by having a long chat with her about expectations and what consequences would be if she doesn't meet the expectations. So for example, if she misbehaves and it relates to a gadget (Internet, iPad etc) she will get a screen ban for a set time. If she uses phone at school or texts inappropriate things she loses her phone for set time (or phone is replaced with brick phone). If she hits siblings she will face a suitable consequence for that etc.

I wouldn't punish for the things in the past. I would set the rules for future misbehaving.

If she misbehaves at school I wouldn't defend her. I would talk about reducing her riding lessons if she continues to misbehave at school as a consequence. if her behaviour improves they can be reinstated.

She sounds really anxious and is seeking connection with you. Do you spend regular time with her one on one? Can you even if it's a 15 min manicure time together or a mum daughter walk and talk or go for a coffee? This will fill up her cup so that she doesn't need to act out to get that connection.

Don't underestimate the impact of your break up and 'fighting' will have had on her sense of security and stability.

I think the horse and horse riding can be used as a reward - her slowly earning points towards getting one in a year or two and extra time with horses as a shorter term reward. It's great that she has this focus please don't ban it as it might be all she has for self esteem etc.

ADHD could be explored. The lack of impulse control sounds like it. Can you ask school if an educational psychologist can meet with her? Can you ask to speak
With the school sendco? They have said themselves that sanctions do not work which probably implies she finds it harder than others her age to control her impulses - it's unlikely she is willfully choosing to get I. Trouble, few children do.

I have adhd and I have an adult child awaiting diagnosis - I am 100% certain that she has adhd too. As it happens, both of us were exceptionally well behaved at school because we are both fantastic at masking our difficulties.

I certainly don't think that all badly behaved kids are neurodiverse, nor do I think that neurodiversity should ever be used as an excuse for poor behaviour - it isn't. However, when there are clear indicators that neurodiversity may be a factor in a child's behaviour, I think parents owe it to the child to get them assessed. I don't see why that should be at all offensive to anyone who has lived experience of neurodiversity as they are more likely than most to recognise the challenges that this can bring.

Nobody is saying that the child's behaviour is acceptable or that the parents should turn a blind eye/let her get away with blue murder. They are saying that it is important to ascertain whether or not neurodiversity is a factor as this will have clear implications for how the poor behaviour can most effectively be tackled. I have no idea why that's controversial.

And of course, nobody can diagnose on MN. We are merely recognising indicators and recommending that the child should be assessed.

You could try reading The Explosive Child - I didn't find it hugely helpful as many thing we were doing - or How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk

It's perfectly possible there's ND and over indulgent parenting at play here - I'd talk to SENCO at school see what they think but it sound like your frighten to say no to her and her behavior is extreme - I would look at sites/books about how to parents ND girl and it won't harm her if she's not and she clearly needs urgent help and you sound utterly lost.

Her father and I had a rough patch a few months ago and she was witness to a lot of the fighting. However, these behaviour issues are not new at all. Amid our fighting, she got into trouble at school. In the first term of the year, she had gotten (within two months) 25 negatives.

Children need rules and discipline but not in an unfair way.
They still need love and acts to show they are loved.

There is a reason she is acting this way and I think you are massively overlooking yours and her dads impact on her.

A child should not witness a lot of fighting between their parents, of course that’s going to make her act out.

How can you expect a child to behave in an appropriate way, when 2 grown adults (her role models) are behaving in an inappropriate way.
Its very hypocritical.

You say her behaviour was already bad but it’s gotten worse since then.

I think you’re massively underestimating the impact of your relationship and it’s likely it’s been quite bad for a while, which is what she’s picked up on.

I would seriously consider seeing if she can talk to a therapist or counsellor, perhaps someone at school and get to the route of her anger.

Until you get to the route of the problem, no amount of discipline or rules is going to stop it.

I would also recommend getting her assessed as she does sound like could be having difficulties and masking neuro diversity

What do you mean by defending your daughter when she gets into trouble? Why are you doing that?

Awful advice to cancel a very healthy hobby - just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's spoiling her it will be doing her the world of good.

Rather than removing horse time as a punishment I would have her earn extra horsey stuff as a reward. Shows her you believe she can do it and helps her focus on a goal and what she should BE doing. And if she still can't manage it with a decent reward promised you'll know for sure that there is more to her difficulties with behaviour.

I'm not really sure what on earth you can be defending here? Part of showing them love is also teaching them to be decent human beings and setting out clear boundaries. If she's into horse riding find her a hard nosed instructor that will make her do half an hour of no stirrups every time she gets lippy 😆

Is she 'better' when she's been horseriding? Calmer, more peaceful?

Taking away the one thing that is good for her could unleash a level of emotional pain for her that will have catastrophic effects upon everybody around.

If, for example, she's been around fighting, noise, disruption, concrete, traffic noise, other people's aggression, noise from her siblings all week - and then she gets to somewhere that's green, open, smells good, has the warmth and security of different, comfortable clothing, no problems with communicating and the trusting relationship with a horse - that's everything to her. It's time to breathe and be at peace.

I hope that posters wouldn't say 'Oh, if she loves the dog so much, you should rehome it to punish her' - but I'm not sure they wouldn't. If this is her one thing that helps her regulate, that takes her out of the environment where she's raging, anxious, has constant sound and visual noise shrieking at her all the time - then you're not enacting a proportionate consequence, you'll be actively seeking the most emotionally damaging punishment you could possibly find.

I wouldn't buy a horse, no, but I wouldn't take riding away. I'd be looking at what it is about riding that makes her peaceful and happy instead - she can't hit and scream at a horse to get her own way, after all.

Op honestly all these posters saying that she's behaving like this because you don't punish her enough are wrong- yes give her boundaries- but just harsh punishments will only push her away as school are saying sanctions don't work on her. If she feels excluded from her family and her peer group at school she will be pushed to find acceptance elsewhere- a gang? A 19 yr old 'boyfriend?'

She needs connection and rewards for her better behaviour.

This

I agree with @3WildOnes that taking away riding lessons is a terrible idea. Especially if she enjoys them and it's the one time she's relatively calm. Rather, use them as a tool. So at riding, or on the way to riding or whatever is a good time to talk and to interact with her when she's at her best. The incentive of getting a horse, if she behaves in certain ways is also useful.

DS has ADHD and he is not massively responsive to punishments as such. Removing privileges, especially on an ad hoc basis just leads to additional poor behaviour. Having said that, clear consequences for specific actions do work - stated in advance, enacted completely calmly and without fuss.

He has a sport he loves as well and I would only restrict his attendance for the most awful of behaviour.

Rewarding positive behaviour however is very useful and he is smart enough to see, once the behaviour has changed (or, once he's tried as hard as he can to change it) that it is better this way. So he still gets more codes and detention at school that we'd like, but he is actively working hard to improve that because he sees, when he tries, how much better everything is - from the way the teachers interact with him, to the fact that he doesn't lose out on time with his friends etc.

Ps which in laws babysit them are you sure they are safe and your daughter feels safe with them?

Its very difficult. Id be first to say bad behaviour needs punished whether thats no horse riding etc. However if shes ND punishing her like this may do more harm than good. Wish i could offer a solution. From the sounds of it you definitely need outisde help. But while you need her to understand her behaviour isnt acceptable keep ensuring she knows youre on her side.

I wouldn't take her horse riding away as a punishment. If she screams or is rude to you directly I would tell her it's not acceptable to communicate like that and that you will listen to her when she's ready to talk to you calmly.

If she's being unacceptably mean to her siblings I would send her to her room and tell her she can share the shared space in your home when she's ready to be nice to be around.

And I would tell her to apologise to teachers she has treated badly.

At all other times I would be very positive and supportive - have a good day DD , praise her for tiny positive behaviours etc.

OP, do you have any idea the amount of time and commitment a horse takes? You sound stressed to the max already without adding in another complication in the hope it will improve behaviour.
Kindly, it sounds like some therapy for you would be a better investment to give you a chance to unpick your own childhood, to be able to separate it from your daughter’s own and to actually parent with confidence.

To give you an example of what I mean by consequences, in advance, enacted calmly.... DS is allowed quite a lot of freedom to be out and about. But our two inviolate rules are 1. he has to (broadly, not specifically) keep us in the loop of where he is and 2. if he has been told a time to be home, he MUST be home at that time.

If he does NOT do these things, then he will not be allowed to go out with his friends next time.

This is very clear, very cause-effect, very specific and it works really well. He has NT friends whose parents find it very hard to get their head around how DS just routinely calls us and is always on time, particularly as he's not known for his brilliant organisation skills! But my theory is that it was just a very clear, very firm, very non-negotiable boundary from day 1 and actually, his ADHD brain likes that. it's consistent, clear, and easy to understand.

If you’re a parent of a ND child don’t you find it offensive when terrible behaviour is assumed to be due to ND?

I do. I've worked with SEN kids for 20 years and have two of my own. Drives me nuts that people leap to blame things like ADHD for poor behvaiour. Any unmet needs in a child can lead to poor behaviour but ADHD doesn't make you an arse.

A huge amount of what's needed to support kids with additional needs is just good parenting that is appropriate for any child. Structure, routine and consequences are more important for ND kids, not less.

There are so many parents now claiming that their child has additional needs when they behave poorly that service providers are mandating parents must take a parenting course before their child will be considered for further support. It's incredibly frustrating when we know what a diagnosis should be and you've got a brilliant parent doing everything right but I can see why they do it- many of these referrals resolve when basic effective parenting is employed.

By all means @stressedmummmm should pursue assessment (it's a long process, so better to get started in case it's needed) but the people advising OP not to bother parenting well in the meantime are as bad as the ones saying just punish her immediately without any discussion.

I'd sit down now and have a chat about expectations.

Any phone calls from school or detentions mean that the next horse riding lesson is cancelled.

Any screaming at you will mean electronics are taken for x hours.

Don't start to hard or you've nowhere to go.

If she asks about the horse tell her you won't be rewarding this type of behaviour so it's on hold for now. If she asks when, tell her you'll let her know.

But yes I'd get into the school about an assessment.

But you know that being adhd doesn't come with a pass for behaviour. So start researching girls, masking, and how to parent effectively.

Eg if her food isn't right, don't plate hers up, let her do it herself so it's right. My dd could t have certain foods touching and food had to be on the plate in the right order.

Yes, really.

Get her assessed, OP.

Spend your money on a private assessment which will benefit her more than a horse.

This is just so much bollocks and parent blaming, OP, please don’t listen.