AIBU to defend my daughter?

[stressedmummmm]

My daughter is 11 (12 in June) and she has been a handful to handle both at home and in school. She is starting to get into more and more trouble at school and I'm not sure what to do.

Recently she has gotten into trouble for googling her history teacher during class which the teacher. She's gotten an afterschool detention.

Previously she had gotten into trouble for being rude and combative to her very kind teacher. The teacher has said that negative consequences do not have an effect on her, and the sanction system fails her.

Another teacher has said she's so distributive in music class that the teacher has requested she be moved to another class as she didn't want to deal with her anymore.

At home, she will scream at me if she does not get what she wants. She is very rude to us all. She hits her brothers if they do not listen to what she tells them to do, for example, to turn their iPads down. She will scream if her food is not how she wants it. She will scream if I dont take her somewhere specific now.

She is very jealous of me hanging out with my friends or even speaking to them on the phone. If I go out with my friends she will call her father in tears saying I have abandoned them (we live close to my inlaws, and when I go out my inlaws kindly have the kids). She will also text my friends on my Instagram and tell them to not contact me/I don't want to speak to them.

Her father and I had a rough patch a few months ago and she was witness to a lot of the fighting. However, these behaviour issues are not new at all. Amid our fighting, she got into trouble at school. In the first term of the year, she had gotten (within two months) 25 negatives.

I lost my mum at 14. My stepmom was not kind, and she didn't like me. I ended up spending most weekends with my grandmother on my mum's side. As I got older I started spending more time away from my dad's house until I got married at 23, fresh out of uni. I think I tried to give my children as much love as possible, and I always try to show them I am on their side. Kind of us against the world. When my daughter gets into trouble I am the first to defend her, but it gets out of hand and the school has mentioned suspension and expulsion more than once. My children live a blessed life, they get everything they want. DD goes horse riding three times a week, and I am thinking of buying her a horse.

I am worried that I have raised a spoiled brat but that she also might be neurodiverse. Her brother has been diagnosed with ADHD, but he behaves much better and his issues were very apparent. Shes smart enough to be masking, but her behaviour is out of hand.

My friend tells me I need to become more harsh with discipline, and I should be punishing her more severely. Especially with the horseriding privileges. How should I do this? Please be kind, I am trying my best here.

If you do explore the possible of neurodiversity - ime there is very little help out there once they are diagnosed.

There is a temptation to think diagnosis will help, and it does help in the sense that other people will make reasonable adjustments but you still need to parent the child in front of you and I found very little help.

Medication for adhd did help but it really only helps a little but and takes months to work.

Parenting classes are your best bet. They will help you make the changes you need to make in a supportive environment

Yes, I read it.

It sounds very like the child is neurodiverse, and that is almost certainly the central issue.

I'm not saying that the OP's parenting is going to win any awards, but I don't think that's the main problem here.

My dd was always impeccably behaved at school, the teachers used to rave about her, constantly described her as a positive role model etc. They probably made lots of assumptions that I was a strict boundary/clear consequences type of parent on the basis of how my dd conducted herself, but I guarantee that such an approach would have had a very negative impact on my dd. Some kids need a different approach.

This x1000!

If you’re a parent of a ND child don’t you find it offensive when terrible behaviour is assumed to be due to ND? Who’s that helping?

I think you start off by talking to her, gently asking her how she feels when she gets angry, what she feels at school and is it different from at home.

Then introduce consequences, she can’t get into trouble at school and come home as if everything is normal so there needs to be a balance of, sanctions.
Introduce limiting screen time but definitely change passwords and put on parental control so you have overall control of everything. If she starts misbehaving then she loses time on her tablets etc.
Keep the horse riding going but explain that if behaviour doesn’t change then she will begin to lose out.

Don’t always have her back, I know that’s hard to hear and even harder to do but if she misbehaves at school and it’s not something silly or small then back the school up and reinforce the punishments.

It’s a hard thing to start but she feels she’s in control right now and its only going to get harder as she gets further into her teenage years. You need to let her see that you are in control and you’re doing it for the best. Don’t let her have any access to your social media, she shouldn’t be able to contact your friends etc.
Explain the situation with your family and her father so everyone is on board, that way If she phones and complains then they have your back.

The rolling ball of intergenerational trauma coupled with hormones and school.

Systemic work with a trained therapist would probably help you all loads.

Children very rarely have a disorder, problem or behaviours for no reason and some children bear the symptoms for the whole family and will get diagnosed with all sorts of labels. (That's not to say those labels aren't valid and useful)

It's worth going into a therapeutic process together, and during it; lots of self care for you 💐 consistency and boundaries and high nurture.

Also be prepared to be accountable and hear tough things.

Also diet is massive, she's 11 so hormones will be kicking off lots. Is she getting enough sleep, exercise, is school massively oppressive and stifling? Magnesium supplements can be miracle help.

There's probably lots going on but I'm a great believer in being able to unpick, work through it and come out the other side.

Best of luck. You've got this!

Sometimes I do, yes: however, some ND children do exhibit behaviour that challenges. That's just a fact. It sounds from OP's description of the situation that neurodivergence might be a real possibility here. It's in the family, and the extent of OP's daughter's behaviour does indicate to me that there's an underlying issue leading her to be dysregulated. I don't feel that this is one of those threads where someone behaves poorly and then ND is jumped to.

No one on MN can tell you what punishments or consequences you should use. It's too individual.

I would say you need to:

1. Definitely not buy the horse - that's just rewarding bad behaviour
2. Look into further support - she could be ND. She could also be traumatised if your parents have a messy, toxic relationship and she's in the middle. She could be both.
3. Seek specific help with parenting - you are clearly struggling. I don't know what the options are but perhaps through a health visitor or GP you can attend parenting classes or similar?
4. Try to talk to her - try to understand why she behaves this way. See if you can get some understanding - is it frustration that she can't control, is it anger, is it something else?

Hi op definitely look into seeing if your DD is ND. But in the meantime sit her down explain what behaviour(s) are unacceptable and that should they occur then X will be the consequence. Then when she does misbehave follow through everytime. It will be challenging to begin with but you need to remain firm and consistent

Omg, reading your updates it seems like you have not got the first clue about parenting, are you seriously asking if you should be punishing at home for something she did at school? Your kid is an arse hole because you’ve not got a clue how to parent her, why are you asking for a step by step guide on how to punish your child? This whole thing baffles me, why don’t you know how to do this and you have 3 kids? That’s really worrying 😑 what is going on in this world 🫤

There is a reason she behaves the way she does, no one acts out for no reason. Is she getting enough 1-1 time? I think having honest communication is important and her being able to tell you how she's feeling without judgement.

If she's never had boundaries in place she could feel entitled to act any way she likes, kids need boundaries it helps them feel safe it's not a negative thing.

If you felt unloved and abandoned chances are you're over compensating which may have resulted in her lack of awareness around others.

DD goes horse riding three times a week, and I am thinking of buying her a horse.

there’s a very obvious option for a consequence to her shitty behaviour.

All behaviour is a communication. Yes, sometimes a child is communicating that you have spoiled her rotten and she needs some boundaries.
The advice so far is either 1) try some good parenting because what you've done so far is objectively poor parenting or 2) get a diagnosis before you try taking any responsibility or expecting a change in behaviour - that way it can become everyone else's problem.

Not unreasonable to defend your kid though her behaviour does need to be addressed..

You probably already know that neurodiversity presents differently in girls so could be something to look into.. you should definitely speak to the GP see what the can advise.

In the meantime some consequences may be needed.. I wouldn't allow the horse riding if behaviour continues and I certainly wouldn't be gifting a horse. It's just reinforcing bad behaviour.

Stop trying to find a label to excuse your daughter's behaviour - she just sounds completely spoiled. I would cancel all horse riding until she has shown that she can behave appropriately for several months, take away her phone, iPad etc, and sanction her every time she is rude or aggressive. If it's essential for her to have a phone for you to contact her when she is out of the home, then buy her a very very basic one. It sounds like she has had very little discipline in her life and you need to put very clear boundaries in place now.

Yes Ableism 101 … this notion that ND children are just naughty, it’s depressing

And nobody diagnosed, the advice was “explore a diagnosis, and try treating “as if” until that’s clear”.

A number of us with ND children recognise a lot in her behaviour, or maybe we’ve just made it up, because we are lazy parents!

If what you are doing isn’t working, try something else …

This child has never had boundary parenting though, so how anyone can tell whether or not she will respond is beyond me.

OP you sound very like the parent I phoned the other day as a teacher.
Parent "I don't know what to do"
Me "have you tried taking her phone"
Parent "no, she won't like that".

YABU to defend your daughter no matter what. And its not surprising she behaves this way at school if she knows she won't get into trouble for it at all.

I have a ND daughter and she really struggled in the first year of secondary school. She got into trouble for various things, but I always presented a united front with the school and made it clear her behaviour was in no way acceptable. Even on occasions where I thought maybe the punishment was a little heavy handed as nothing major actually occurred, I recognised that there was some intent behind her actions and she needed a strong, firm boundary and to 'nip it in the bud' before something more serious happened. Whether your daughter is ND or not, you need to work with school, not defend her at all costs.

While i certainly wouldn't consider buying my child a horse, I'm not sure I would take away the horse riding. If that is an activity she loves and she behaves well there then I think it should continue. I would however take away electronics when she behaves badly. That is a much easier, quicker consequence to her actions. If she is being rude and disrespectful at home you can give her a warning of the consequences then follow through. Similarly, if she has used her phone at school when she knows she is not allowed, take it away when she gets home.

Horse riding is actually therapeutic and teaches discipline (as yards are not very tolerant places and horsey people don't take any crap) and resilience. I would definitely continue with the riding.

She sounds like a spoilt brat OP. Nip it in the bud before she is an out of control teenager. She is far too old to be ‘a handful’. She isn’t 3!

You are already talking yourself out of taking any action. If course you should cancel the horse riding and a horse is a huge reward for exceptional behaviour over a long period, not something she gets for practically getting excluded from school. Time to stand up to her and set clear boundaries. Giving her what she wants will not make her happy. In fact you are setting her up for a life of misery.

Do not buy her a horse, stop all privileges and deal with your daughter's behaviour before it's too late!
She will be expelled, become even angrier and make your life hell.
It's down to you and her father to parent your child and you start this by setting rules and boundaries and consequences

@ExtraOnions

Yes Ableism 101 … this notion that ND children are just naughty, it’s depressing

The notion that naughty children are just naughty is also depressing, but sadly true.

And nobody diagnosed, the advice was “explore a diagnosis, and try treating “as if” until that’s clear”.

So treat as if she has a serious diagnosis before you try sensible parenting?

A number of us with ND children recognise a lot in her behaviour, or maybe we’ve just made it up, because we are lazy parents!

A number of us with years of experience of both ND children and those suffering from bad/lazy parenting recognise a lot in her behaviour too.

If what you are doing isn’t working, try something else …

That's what some of us are recommending. She isn't doing anything other than rewarding poor behaviour.

OK. What you've done here is massively over compensated for your own traumatic childhood. It happens.

Yes, you should punish her at home for infractions at school, even if the school are punishing her. She needs to know she's let the school down and ALSO let you down.

You need to give up the horse idea totally. If she were mine, she wouldn't be getting her own horse. She'd probably only hit it or scream at it anyway. She doesn't deserve one.

Next up, actual consequences. Obvious stuff like a minimum punishment of losing her phone for 24hrs. Maximum of one month. Also, not going out/having friends round etc.

You need to remind her that she is the child, and you are the adult and as such, YOU are in control. Not her.

What I would also do is ask for a weekly report from the school about her behaviour and then take action at the weekends based upon that.

Stop rewarding her awful, entitled, bratty attitude. Take action now and by the time she leaves school, she might be well-rounded enough to function in society.

You are absolutely correct. Unfortunately we all know that this parent will go down the ND route and, having the resources to buy a horse, will surely have the resources to acquire the desired diagnosis. All while children with genuine needs but no horses are neglected.