AIBU to defend my daughter?

[stressedmummmm]

My daughter is 11 (12 in June) and she has been a handful to handle both at home and in school. She is starting to get into more and more trouble at school and I'm not sure what to do.

Recently she has gotten into trouble for googling her history teacher during class which the teacher. She's gotten an afterschool detention.

Previously she had gotten into trouble for being rude and combative to her very kind teacher. The teacher has said that negative consequences do not have an effect on her, and the sanction system fails her.

Another teacher has said she's so distributive in music class that the teacher has requested she be moved to another class as she didn't want to deal with her anymore.

At home, she will scream at me if she does not get what she wants. She is very rude to us all. She hits her brothers if they do not listen to what she tells them to do, for example, to turn their iPads down. She will scream if her food is not how she wants it. She will scream if I dont take her somewhere specific now.

She is very jealous of me hanging out with my friends or even speaking to them on the phone. If I go out with my friends she will call her father in tears saying I have abandoned them (we live close to my inlaws, and when I go out my inlaws kindly have the kids). She will also text my friends on my Instagram and tell them to not contact me/I don't want to speak to them.

Her father and I had a rough patch a few months ago and she was witness to a lot of the fighting. However, these behaviour issues are not new at all. Amid our fighting, she got into trouble at school. In the first term of the year, she had gotten (within two months) 25 negatives.

I lost my mum at 14. My stepmom was not kind, and she didn't like me. I ended up spending most weekends with my grandmother on my mum's side. As I got older I started spending more time away from my dad's house until I got married at 23, fresh out of uni. I think I tried to give my children as much love as possible, and I always try to show them I am on their side. Kind of us against the world. When my daughter gets into trouble I am the first to defend her, but it gets out of hand and the school has mentioned suspension and expulsion more than once. My children live a blessed life, they get everything they want. DD goes horse riding three times a week, and I am thinking of buying her a horse.

I am worried that I have raised a spoiled brat but that she also might be neurodiverse. Her brother has been diagnosed with ADHD, but he behaves much better and his issues were very apparent. Shes smart enough to be masking, but her behaviour is out of hand.

My friend tells me I need to become more harsh with discipline, and I should be punishing her more severely. Especially with the horseriding privileges. How should I do this? Please be kind, I am trying my best here.

Who is advising the OP not to parent? Is seeking a diagnosis not also part of parenting a potentially ND child?

Of course the kid needs parenting. But the type of parenting needed might differ depending on the reasons for the behaviour.

Op if your child is ND then you need to parent in a different way. Please dont stop horse riding. People would never suggest stopping a child playing football for bad behavior

This - you should not reward a child’s bad behaviour and then expect it to change. All you have taught her is that you will buy her stuff if she escalates.

I also think that it nay be that she does have a neurodiversity - NDs tend to run in families and are massively under-recognised in girls because they are impacted differently. Puberty can exacerbate formerly unobvious NDs, as well. It may also be that [she feels] your son has had disproportionate attention due to his ND and her behaviour is to get her share of attention? Do you telegraph that ‘he is really well behaved, despite his ND’ to her, ie she feels he is the favourite child?

That said, even where NDs are present, consistent parenting, clear consequences, earning rewards are needed (eg. horseriding would be earned back - make a chart for good behaviour that includes school behaviour, where she earns for good behaviour/loses for bad behaviour - once she reached a certain number of points/stickers, you will book 3 lessons. She has to earn the next tranche).

I’d suggest speaking to the GP and school (latter can instigate an ed psych eval) and also look into parenting classes (ParentCraft or even via the NAS/ADHD organisations as they may run courses geared at family dynamics where you have at least one ND child).

Even if you feel you are parenting two children the same - the reality is different. Personalities, sex/gender, birth order, special needs (high IQ, NDs etc) and puberty all mean we need to fine tune accordingly. I know of few parents who haven’t run into issues with one or more of their kids, so don’t beat yourself up over it - but I would reach out and get some support for both your DH and yourself so that you can try and turn this around.

Structure, routine and consequences would have been a disaster for my dd. Luckily I responded to her individual needs instead of listening to rubbish advice from strangers on MN, and she has thrived.

It sounds like your DD doesn’t really have any boundaries at home. You need to support school in everything they say and do and reinforce their boundaries.

You also need to set clear boundaries now - with very clear consequences and then, be consistent. This is going to be so much harder to do now as you haven’t really parented like this previously. Expect massive kick-back. However, if you want your DD to grow up to be a decent human being, you need to parent securely and consistently now.

I would sit DD down and explain how things are going to be. She will kick off but for each transgression have a clear consequence.

You’re spoiling her and she will turn into a vile adult if you don’t start punishing her

You won't want to hear this, OP, but you are a big part of the problem. Where do you state the consequences for her actions? Surely you know that buying her a horse is not the way to go (and is she capable of looking after and treating a horse well)? Where are the boundaries? It's totally unacceptable that she behaves so rudely to her teachers, and she is ruling the home, not living in the home!

You need some boundaries put in place, and you need to mean what you say and do it. This is the behaviour of a child who knows she can get away with behaving badly and the response will be ineffectual - and at the moment she's right.

Of course they would.

Neuro-diverse! The latest Mumsnet excuse for parents who tolerate and excuse bad behavior in their offspring. Unfortunately the real world of life and work will not make the same allowances. (Already wearing steel helmet).

If she is happy and behaves at horse riding I certainly wouldn't take it away.

My daughter is autistic and, while her issues are not exactly the same, sometimes she needs consequences but I don't take away the activities that she's truly happy at where she can be herself. I'd explore the possible neurodiversity but also agreed consequences that you agree when she is calm.

I wouldn't buy her a horse though.

Why do you think she might be ND?

What happens when she screams for things? How much screaming has she witnessed between you and your husband?

ND children need structure and consistency. Firm boundaries are going to help regulate her, rather than just leaving her to her own devices to free-fall.

Unless the horse is essential for some high-level competition I would not be rewarding her with one!

I wouldn't stop the horse-riding, particularly if she's calm and well-behaved during her sessions, but the horse should be a goal - a reward for good behaviour. If you give her one now, you're essentially rewarding bad behaviour and creating even more of a rod for your own back.

I would investigate ADHD but it doesn't sound to my (admittedly untrained) mind that that's what she's got. It sounds like she needs much firmer boundaries and perhaps the fighting with your husband could be impacting her more than you think. One of the main reasons kids act up is because they have an unstable home life.

Ignorance is never an attractive quality in a person. If you don't know anything about neurodiversity and how it affects people, it is probably best not to comment.

This is just so much bollocks and parent blaming, OP, please don’t listen.

I mean, I suppose if you think suggesting parents should parent their kids and bad parenting leads to behaviour problems, then yes it is.

I think I’d probably replace the word defend with unconditional love….. defending bad behaviour isn’t going to help anyone. More of a that behaviour is unacceptable but I will always love you message might be better.

The messaging your friends and her attachment style isn’t ‘normal’ I don’t think. Why is she so fearful? She sounds very unhappy, I’d want to find out what is going on deep down. Have either of you had counselling before?

She is crying out for boundaries, kids love them. Maybe remembering that will help you enforce them. It feels very unsafe for a child to live without any.

Also get angry. Why aren’t you more pissed off about her rudeness / entitlement? Although I’d really struggle to take away the horse riding as well - being outside, exercising, spending time with animals. It’s really hard to do and you’ll have to deal with the backlash from her as well. Might be worth it in the end though.

By the way who really knows who is getting it right, no one is perfect that’s for sure.

Ask the school about ADHD and autism referral and your GP.

Speak to the sendco about support for her.

Maybe put in place more incentives to behave well. (Earn privileges)

Positive feedback might help. (Counterintuitive and fucking annoying as parent and teacher but for some kids it works, which is the aim)

What's she like with caffeine? Does she calm down or get worse? (One of mine behaves better if you feed them sugar, and follow up with complex carbs)

Try her losing privileges if she doesn't behave but allow her to earn them back reasonably quickly for good behaviour. (Otherwise there is no incentive for her to improve she might just go on the rampage)
(Also annoying as a parent but works with some neurodiverse kids)

Keep well fed . Low blood sugar can cause bad behaviour.

Keep her well exercised. (If that's horse riding so be it) (also counterintuitive as you sometimes want them to lose privileges but it does help) I wouldn't be buying a horse though. That's an extra.

Look at sensory issues . The noise on the other kids devices might be triggering sensory meltdown. Are there any other sensory issues?

Get her to sleep....(yeah, that's not working well here we had a 2am meltdown last night ) but it does help.

Parenting neurodiverse kids is hard work and very different.

She shouldn’t have access to instagram at age 11

I broadly agree with @donquixotedelamancha . That's not to say that ND children need exactly the same type of parenting as NT children or that there aren't additional challenges - there are. But poor parenting is poor parenting whether the child is NT or ND.

There is flex in how I parent DS to accept that his ADHD (and actually, almost as much, his Sensory Processing Disorder) affects him. But that doesn't change the fact that I still have to actively parent him and find ways to help him outside of just throwing up my hands and saying, "it's his ADHD/SPD".

I have got into arguments on MN about this before - the world is NOT set up for ND people. It's getting better and that is something to be celebrated. Nonetheless, my ND child is going to have to function in a world that is largely NOT designed for him and that means I have to help him figure out the tools to make that work for him if I want him to be an independent, successful adult in due course.

Who is advising the OP not to parent?

I'm not going to start bickering with individuals but there are a minority of posters who seem (perhaps they've expressed themselves poorly) to be suggesting that applying any consequences for poor behaviour is wrong and a 'diagnosis' will solve OP's problems. At least on person already thinks suggesting effective parenting will help is 'parent blaming'.

Is seeking a diagnosis not also part of parenting a potentially ND child?

Yes. I said that in the post you quoted.

Of course the kid needs parenting. But the type of parenting needed might differ depending on the reasons for the behaviour.

Of course but there are obvious contributory factors for the behviour contained in the OP. The starting point is to address those. If there are other complicating factors then they will take time to be diagnosed. The people who think they can diagnose over the internet are fools- 20 years experience and I wouldn't do that.

Oh come on! How can you make that assumption about the parenting?

Also ADHD or not, still doesn't give her the green light to be an absolute brat - which is what she's being.

Also, wouldn't the school have voiced concerns if they thought she was ND? Seems like they just see her as a massive pain in the arse.

OP I get that you had a shitty childhood and are now trying to overcompensate for that. But she really doesn't deserve a horse! Surely you can see that? She needs some clear consequences for her behaviour.

I 100% agree with this.

it’s so frustrating the amount of parents that use this as excuse for shitty behaviour.

( I have a child with ASD and ADHD so I do understand the challenges, just not the excuses!)

My children live a blessed life, they get everything they want. DD goes horse riding three times a week, and I am thinking of buying her a horse

Thats awful not blessed! 😳 Why would you think giving children everything they want is a good thing? What does that teach them about the world? You’re supposed to be parenting them not trying to buy their love or indulge them. You’re raising spoilt brats and just because your DD is the one that plays up, it doesn’t mean your other children aren’t being affected as well.

Why are you defending your DD when she does wrong? What message do you think she gets from that? How do you think she sees you? Gullible and easy to manipulate, I’d think.

You don’t seem to have put any rules or boundaries in place or even understand how to do so (your questions above show this). Stop the horse-riding and concentrate on setting clear boundaries for your DD. Make sure you don’t overcompensate for your lack of discipline previously by going mad. Lay the rules out and the consequences of misbehaviour (for all your children not just DD) and follow them through.

I agree with so many here but then I’m torn as you mentioned the fighting (you and dp) and her being jealous, you having a slightly different childhood etc. Could be sn but she could also be out of control just because of being overwhelmed and then add in hormones (I was blown away but how suddenly hormones hit my ds and how he’d seem almost in shock at times AS he was shouting). But he did apologise afterwards. Does she talk to you? Do you sit down together? You say they get everything they need but do they get your time and attention other than when she’s acting out?

Of course, adhd is not an excuse for bad behaviour and parents can't just shrug their shoulders and say "it's the adhd". Of course they still have to parent.

But rigid routines and strict consequences don't work for all kids. My dd rails against any kind of routine and rebels against any form of control, but with a different approach, she behaves impeccably. As you say, it is about figuring out what works for your child. A one size fits all approach isn't appropriate.