AIBU to defend my daughter?

[stressedmummmm]

My daughter is 11 (12 in June) and she has been a handful to handle both at home and in school. She is starting to get into more and more trouble at school and I'm not sure what to do.

Recently she has gotten into trouble for googling her history teacher during class which the teacher. She's gotten an afterschool detention.

Previously she had gotten into trouble for being rude and combative to her very kind teacher. The teacher has said that negative consequences do not have an effect on her, and the sanction system fails her.

Another teacher has said she's so distributive in music class that the teacher has requested she be moved to another class as she didn't want to deal with her anymore.

At home, she will scream at me if she does not get what she wants. She is very rude to us all. She hits her brothers if they do not listen to what she tells them to do, for example, to turn their iPads down. She will scream if her food is not how she wants it. She will scream if I dont take her somewhere specific now.

She is very jealous of me hanging out with my friends or even speaking to them on the phone. If I go out with my friends she will call her father in tears saying I have abandoned them (we live close to my inlaws, and when I go out my inlaws kindly have the kids). She will also text my friends on my Instagram and tell them to not contact me/I don't want to speak to them.

Her father and I had a rough patch a few months ago and she was witness to a lot of the fighting. However, these behaviour issues are not new at all. Amid our fighting, she got into trouble at school. In the first term of the year, she had gotten (within two months) 25 negatives.

I lost my mum at 14. My stepmom was not kind, and she didn't like me. I ended up spending most weekends with my grandmother on my mum's side. As I got older I started spending more time away from my dad's house until I got married at 23, fresh out of uni. I think I tried to give my children as much love as possible, and I always try to show them I am on their side. Kind of us against the world. When my daughter gets into trouble I am the first to defend her, but it gets out of hand and the school has mentioned suspension and expulsion more than once. My children live a blessed life, they get everything they want. DD goes horse riding three times a week, and I am thinking of buying her a horse.

I am worried that I have raised a spoiled brat but that she also might be neurodiverse. Her brother has been diagnosed with ADHD, but he behaves much better and his issues were very apparent. Shes smart enough to be masking, but her behaviour is out of hand.

My friend tells me I need to become more harsh with discipline, and I should be punishing her more severely. Especially with the horseriding privileges. How should I do this? Please be kind, I am trying my best here.

I work with Autistic people, it sounds like she could be nerodiverse. The screaming with sounds, changes in routine and food, struggles with demands. I'd talk to school and look at a referral for an assessment and also look into parenting advice for autistic children, they need a different approach.

F* me, few people on here have anything helpful to say at all.

If your parenting were the only issue here (as some would have you believe), I expect you'd see similar behaviour from your other children. From what you say your son with ADHD doesn't show this behaviour.

I would strongly suggest looking into ND assessments. To me this sounds a lot like pathological demand avoidance. When demands are placed on her, she becomes dysregulated and loses control, resulting in the behaviour you see. As a PP has said, changing to low demand strategies could have a hugely positive effect. It takes energy to learn new ways of doing things but it has been nothing short of magical with my ND nephew e.g. instead of 'put your clothes on' it's 'I wonder if you can be dressed before me' or simply putting them in view.

Punishing her will simply escalate this. It will not solve the problem. In fact, if horse riding is something she enjoys and regulates her (how is her behaviour there?), removing it will make things worse. Boundaries are important and are not the same as punishments. Connection is important (like being on her side, working together to solve problems) as is helping her to learn to regulate her emotions. She cannot behave better, until she feels better.

I recommend looking into Sarah Ockwell Smith's parenting books - she is a proponent of parenting with high warmth and strong boundaries, sometimes called 'gentle parenting' but not to be mistaken for permissive parenting (high warmth, weak boundaries). She explains all this much better than I can.

Wishing you all the best. Please find a community of people who have lived experience of this.

I adopted 2 little girls. They had severe behaviour problems which I had to manage. I went on so many courses.

My advice:

Get hold of the book The Out of Synch Child
Look into Pathalogical Demand Avoidance Syndrome
Get her referred to CAMHS for an adhd assessment
See a sensory integration therapist if you can afford it
Do not cancel horse riding - it is activities like this which will help her to calm
Find groups of parents with challenging children - facebook is good
Do not listen to anyone who doesn't have a challenging child!

Best of luck

Texting your friends is very unusual. I’d be wanting to get her seen by a psychiatrist. You can discuss through your gp.
Don’t use neurodivergence as an excuse to not parent though. Weakness and overindulgence (harsh but you implied it!) doesn’t help neurodiverse children either. With nd kids it’s even more important that boundaries are consistent and consequences followed through on.
You really clear boundaries. You can still be kind. Just have clear, reasoned and consistent consequences. I’d be inclined to let school do school and you just focus on home life to start with.
There are parenting classes you can do and a plethora of great books.

I’d be wanting to get to the bottom of why she doesn’t want you seeing friends. It’s worrying and suggests hurt/attachment worries/jealously/fear, several possibilities.
Horse riding is great but do not buy a horse right now!

Ask for a meeting with the SENCO at school.
Do NOT buy her a horse. Owning a horse takes a great amount of responsibility. Does she know you were planning on buying her a horse? I would explain that given the amount of responsibility owning a horse requires, she needs to demonstrate a significant level of maturity before you will even consider buying her a horse.
I was lucky enough to be bought a horse when I was about 14, but it was only after I spent everyday for nearly a year going to the stables with a friend to help them take care of their horse. Do you know anyone with a horse that can take her with them every day to assist with the mucking out, feeding, grooming etc? Ideally, you want her to do this all through the winter as well.

First thing that springs to my mind is safe guarding. Are you sure your daughter has not and is not experiencing some form of abuse. This kind of behaviour can often be an indication. I hate saying it but I have seen it play out this very way where you think they are out of control yet they simply don't know how to open up so it comes out as anger. I would recommend her seeing a gp. They will know if she needs to either see a therapist or go down the neurodiverse route. Please don't dismiss this concern thinking no way as more often than not an abuser is well known and trusted. Mine was a very close friend of my entire family parents and grandparents. None of them would ever have guessed it.

I agree with others who say don’t get rid of the horse riding - but you do need to put boundaries in place. Talk to your daughter, and see if you can find out why she is misbehaving so badly at school - there will be a reason. Why, for example, is she particularly disruptive in music lessons? Does she have friends you can talk to, to find out what’s going on at school? Being supportive to your children doesn’t always mean taking their side - sometimes, it means showing a bit of tough love, and pointing out how their behaviour impacts others. Do not tolerate her hitting her brothers - that is completely unacceptable, so you will have to decide on a sanction, whether time out, or losing privileges like phone or I-pad - but make it reasonable, and make sure she knows in advance what will happen - eg “It’s not Ok to hit your brothers, and if you do, then you will lose your I-pad for an hour” - or whatever you think will have an effect, but will be manageable for you, too. It’s not easy to impose boundaries if you haven’t before, but you MUST be consistent. Finally, don’t fight in front of the children - easier said than done, but you can hardly have a go at her for poor behaviour if you are modelling behaviour that would be unacceptable from her.

Defend your daughter for what? You’re not doing her any favours at all in not putting in boundaries or expectations around behaviour.
Teachers do not want to teach her!
Have you ever heard the saying, “if everyone tells you at the party you’re drunk; then you’re drunk”. Wise up, put in boundaries. Explain the importance of respect. You can give children material things but they mean nothing. In order to get on in life you must be able to receive instructions.
At first reading I thought that this was attachment seeking behaviour but I don’t think so with the blessed life comment. Kids who have gone through tough backgrounds can act in this way, I think your child is quite possibly spoilt and pandered to.

Sorry you're going through this but has she been tested for sen/adhd/autism as it sounds like she can't cope with her emotions

Your daughter obviously has deep seated problems and she needs help, and it is you with the support of the school that needs to find that help. Your daughter obviously doesn't believe she has a "blessed life", and I would agree with her.

She obviously feels insecure, your selfish arguing in front of her will not have helped and don't forget children will know more than you realise.

Throughout your post there is evidence of selfishness, you are talking about the difficulties you have but ignore the difficulties she is having.

You don't mention sitting and talking with her, you haven't asked about what makes her happy or sad, or what makes her angry, absolutely nothing.

You need to forget about the horse, material things will never make up for not having a trusted, secure relationship with your parent, believe me I know.

You need, possibly with a professional support, to come to a an agreement with her about behaviour, she needs to know that if she breaks the rules she will be grounded or miss out on riding lessons. She needs to be rewarded if she behaves well, she needs happy hugs and reassuring hugs. She needs to know she can talk to you and not be judged. Do not defend her when she has done wrong. Who does that help?

And remember what Philip Larkin said, "Parents fuck up."

I wish you the best.

There shouldn't be any horse riding, never mind a horse! Your daughter is learning that she can behave as badly as she likes without any consequences - in fact, she's likely to regard the gift of a horse as bribery and will recognise that you are desperate.

There may well be SEN issues at play, but the reality is your lax parenting style and ‘us against the world’ attitude has raised a spoilt brat that nobody likes very much.

Why is she still getting rewarded for behaving so badly in school and at home? Why is she still having riding lessons? All privileges need to stop until she learns that she needs to behave herself. That includes her phone and access to social media.
Reintroduce these things when she earns them through better behaviour.

If teachers are requesting she be moved classes she is one of those children that is not liked because she disrupts the learning of others. What part of that do you feel needs defending?
Wake up and be a parent.

I would get your daughter assessed for ADHD. The reason I say this is that my 19 year old was diagnosed last year and your daughter acts very similar to the way my daughter did before diagnosis. For years she would scream at us for minor things, make it impossible for me to see friends/go out or even when I tried to spend time with my youngest daughter.

She was a good girl before this all started (around 12 yrs old), so I first thought was that it was hormonal. Medication, counselling and DBT therapy helped her immensely. The screaming hasn't stopped completely...... she still has outbursts, but instead of multiple times a day, it's 2 or 3 times in the last year.
As you know, ADHD stops the control of emotions, hence the screaming and lashing out.

I hope things get better for all of you 😀

I agree with this, may be a lot more going on that she needs understanding. ND children don't respond to the usual consequences because they just don't get them and see them as an unfair attack. Please look into this. X

‘Thinking of buying her a horse’ this tells me everything I need to know. Grow a pair and use some good old fashioned discipline.

If you buy your daughter a horse then I'm afraid you are the problem.

If you were mistreated as a child, the solution isn't to do the opposite to your child.

You need to do some parenting courses. Mr Chazz on Facebook has excellent parenting videos and offers coaching too.

You need to work on you if you want to be an effective parent

Please don’t punish her, her behaviour is communication. If there is neurodivergence in the family, it’s more likely she could be too, and all children present differently. Spend the money you were going to spend on the horse on getting her assessed, and putting the support/adjustments in place.

i don’t think she would be behaving like that at school if it was down to your parenting. I think she’s struggling to cope, and acting out gets her out of the lessons which are maybe overwhelming her.

she sounds just like my daughter, who is ND, she has PDA. ‘Traditional’ parenting and discipline will have an adverse effect. It’s worth looking up The PDA Society to see if you think it fits, then letting school know if she has it (or something else) and they need to start making accommodations for her, and at home you’ll need to go low-demand. Either way, read or listen to ‘The Explosive Child’ by Ross Greene. He also has a website on collaborative parenting which I think would benefit your daughter. Don’t listen to friends or anyone else who says you need to discipline her, you could send her into autistic burnout, if she is ASD. You’re her mother and you know best. Read up on PDA, ADHD, don’t let anyone say it’s ODD, as that’s generally misdiagnosed PDA. And start a low demand lifestyle for her as much as possible, she spends 6 hours a day at school, possibly masking, if she is ND, it’s a huge effort, and home is her safe space, and you are her safe person, and you help her nervous system to regulate. Advocate for her, and collaborate with her to find out why she thinks she is behaving this way, is it out of her control? It’s a flag, a signal, and you and she can find out why together and tackle it together.

PS I have never commented on Mumsnet before, but had to log in to comment on your post as this is a child in distress, she may not know why, and she needs help, so please don’t listen to people baying for discipline, they don’t know her. You’re a fantastic mum, and whatever her problems / differences are, you can help her.

There is a fantastic PDA support group on Facebook you should join, just read through and see if it fits. They also have amazing advice on how to deal with certain situations as perceived demands can send PDA-ers into fight or flight style panic attacks. Also At Peace Parenting’ - lady called Casey on fb and insta. She’s amazing. She does lots on equalising behaviours, which is basically when they lash out. You could read ‘The declarative language handbook’ and ‘low demand parenting’. And there are lots onPDA eg ‘My daughter isn’t naughty’.

Punishment should fit the crime .

no I would not be buying a horse but not stopping lessons .

The consequence at home should be removal of electronics . She needs to use them responsibly .

You say your Ds has adhd , you still need to parent - consequences for a child with ADHD .

she will meltdown / tantrum when she doesn’t get her own way - she has learnt this works .

you do sound like you would benefit from a parenting course .

yes i would also get her assessed - there can be a generic link - there will be a long wait anyway but both children need parenting .

I’m sorry you are going through this. It’s exhausting when there are behavioural issues with our kiddos and difficult for preteens displaying challenging behaviour. It sounds like your daughter is struggling and searching for boundaries and taking full advantage of your difficulty in this area. There will undoubtedly be trauma from your own upbringing making this even more tough on you. If it were my 11 yr old I would sit them down and say that this can’t continue. I’d say I’m worried about them and ask if there is anything I don’t know about or anything they are struggling with. If there is you have a starting point to work with her on finding the support she needs. If there isn’t any background cause and it really is the case of being challenging ‘just because she can’ - then now is the point you sit and spell out bit by bit your expectations for home and school. Number 1 is respect at home and at school - towards you, other important adults, siblings etc and treating others with kindness. Then discuss the need to focus on her education responsibilities and family responsibilities. All extracurricular activities and technology is a privilege that she can earn - kind, respectful behaviour = activities as normal OR you can play it as a sanction system. If she gets in trouble at school then no phone/you tube/tik tok etc for 24/48/72 hours with increasing time for repeat’ ‘offences’ or severity of offence etc. or removal of horse riding lessons or both. Definitely NO horse until you are sure she has turned a corner. Which she will. Parenting goes in phases and this is just another phase. A blooming tough one but you’ll get her to a better place. Neurodivergence isn’t an excuse for poor, disrespectful and unkind behaviour. I have an ADHD/Autistic son of 14. Meltdowns are not this kind of behaviour- this is different but MAY be because she’s struggling with something or several somethings and needs your help. Definitely ask and support but regardless of what it is the playing up has to stop for her sake and yours! Best of luckXx

I think getting some help and support is a good thing. It's not a failure, it's meeting a clear need here.

I would say in my professional role I see both things - very spoiled and entitled dc who do not understand the word 'no', nor do they understand treating people poorly is not okay. They rule the roost with their parents and think they can treat others this way. In many ways it works - people are scared of their behaviour and give in. It's a cycle.

I also see very neurodivergent children and youth who no matter what the consequence cannot make the shifts in behaviour/thinking. They just can't. Even with clear and consistent boundaries. No amount of parenting or rules means they make the right choice in the moment when they experience a want/desire/emotion etc. I'm not saying it doesn't get better, it can, but progress can both feel slow and be one step forward, four back. Even when x always leads to y, they will do x. They may do this hundreds of times and still seem surprised that y happens.

Both situations are very hard for different reasons. I don't think anyone can say which is your daughter, but rather than resources for a horse, I'd think you'd be better placed into putting that into an assessment/support etc.

This is control at its best. I didn't realise my daughter was controlling until we regularly attended a 'Non Violent Resistance Therapy' through CAHMs. This is definitely something to look into.

Try the ABC model
A-Antecedent, what triggers her behaviour
B-Behaviour, what she does when she creates bad behaviour
C-Consequence, what you do to stop her bad behaviour, foe example no horse riding lessons.....From what you say, it seems she can have a behavioural episode and she goes unpunished. She needs to know there are consequences for bad behaviour. I hope this may help & l feel for you, its awful the whole family have to suffer because of her.....something is causing this, & you need to find out what. Good luck.