AIBU to defend my daughter?

[stressedmummmm]

My daughter is 11 (12 in June) and she has been a handful to handle both at home and in school. She is starting to get into more and more trouble at school and I'm not sure what to do.

Recently she has gotten into trouble for googling her history teacher during class which the teacher. She's gotten an afterschool detention.

Previously she had gotten into trouble for being rude and combative to her very kind teacher. The teacher has said that negative consequences do not have an effect on her, and the sanction system fails her.

Another teacher has said she's so distributive in music class that the teacher has requested she be moved to another class as she didn't want to deal with her anymore.

At home, she will scream at me if she does not get what she wants. She is very rude to us all. She hits her brothers if they do not listen to what she tells them to do, for example, to turn their iPads down. She will scream if her food is not how she wants it. She will scream if I dont take her somewhere specific now.

She is very jealous of me hanging out with my friends or even speaking to them on the phone. If I go out with my friends she will call her father in tears saying I have abandoned them (we live close to my inlaws, and when I go out my inlaws kindly have the kids). She will also text my friends on my Instagram and tell them to not contact me/I don't want to speak to them.

Her father and I had a rough patch a few months ago and she was witness to a lot of the fighting. However, these behaviour issues are not new at all. Amid our fighting, she got into trouble at school. In the first term of the year, she had gotten (within two months) 25 negatives.

I lost my mum at 14. My stepmom was not kind, and she didn't like me. I ended up spending most weekends with my grandmother on my mum's side. As I got older I started spending more time away from my dad's house until I got married at 23, fresh out of uni. I think I tried to give my children as much love as possible, and I always try to show them I am on their side. Kind of us against the world. When my daughter gets into trouble I am the first to defend her, but it gets out of hand and the school has mentioned suspension and expulsion more than once. My children live a blessed life, they get everything they want. DD goes horse riding three times a week, and I am thinking of buying her a horse.

I am worried that I have raised a spoiled brat but that she also might be neurodiverse. Her brother has been diagnosed with ADHD, but he behaves much better and his issues were very apparent. Shes smart enough to be masking, but her behaviour is out of hand.

My friend tells me I need to become more harsh with discipline, and I should be punishing her more severely. Especially with the horseriding privileges. How should I do this? Please be kind, I am trying my best here.

Classrooms are noisy, cluttered, restrictive places. She's kicked off in those.
Music lessons can be horrifically noisy places. She's kicked off in those.
School corridors, dining halls, playgrounds, toilets are all cluttered and crowded and noisy.
Brothers, including those with ADHD and noisy iPads, can be horrifically noisy. She's kicked off at them.
Adults fighting in the process of breaking up can be horrifically noisy.

Detention isn't a deterrent. It's quiet.
Being put into inclusion is quiet. There are easy ways to get taken out of lessons. such as 'So, why are you on linked in? Are you looking for another job?'.
Being kicked out of music is quiet.
Horse riding is quiet. It's green. It doesn't get in your face or keep tapping away or getting louder to wind you up. You're not trapped on a chair or expected to endure 32 other kids bashing away on the African Drumming unit when your eardrums feel like they're going to split.

For a permanent exclusion to stick (or a suspension to be upheld), it needs to be shown that there is not a failure to identify or meet SEND. I'd suggest that the SENDCO assists to expedite assessment.

And no, none of this two years' punishment 'until she starts behaving like a normal human being' stuff. Horseriding continues. Because otherwise, you have the full blown, completely unregulated prospect of a hormonal adolescent potentially with SEND and at least one Adverse childhood experience, plus being regarded as a young carer (due to growing up with her brother, it doesn't mean she has to be the one making his dinner or performing intimate care) with the one thing that helps her regulate, calm and not perform incredibly harmful displacement activities/stimming/responses/behaviours removed to make people on the internet satisfied that there's another child being treated the way they were or how they treat their own children.

@TanginaBarrons

"The judgement levelled on here towards a mother in distress who is reaching out in desperation is horrific, abelist and staggeringly simplistic."

This isn't a 'mother in distress reaching out in desperation.'

It's a mother who has admitted, due to her own background and experience, that she hasn't imposed any boundaries or consequences for her child and that said child is now playing up - a situation anyone could predict and is parenting 101. The modern obsession with neurodiversity predictably reared its head on the thread, giving OP further reasons not to face up to the consequences of her own actions. No doubt she will get the diagnosis she pays for and in the meantime her daughter will make life miserable for her siblings, school peers and teachers.

I think you have to investigate why you think it's you (and your kids) versus the world.
When my kids are in trouble, I don't defend them. But I have no doubt they know they are loved and that if they were bullied or someone hurt them I would 100% defend them.

Your questions about consequences are confusing me. I wouldn't punish for things that have happened. But I wouldn't be buying a horse.
But think about what you would do the NEXT time she kicks her brothers, or screams in your face. Or calls up people or messages them (how on earth does she have access to your phone?) and spreads lies about you. How are you going to respond to those.

• she's anxious and gets anxious about you leaving. You need to investigate why. It may be she's ND but she's also aware that you are worried that she won't feel loved (as you didn't) and might be using this as an element of control. What happens when she makes these calls and claims to be abandoned?
• what happens when she's horrible to her brothers? What consequences do you want to impose? How are you protecting her brothers from her?
• When she insists you take her somewhere and she kicks off when you don't, do you give in?

You need to unpack all of this before we can offer us help. It is possible that she's ND but it's also possible that concurrently she's been spoiled. You can have her assessed and also impose certain boundaries for her.

"I think I tried to give my children as much love as possible, and I always try to show them I am on their side. Kind of us against the world. When my daughter gets into trouble I am the first to defend her, but it gets out of hand and the school has mentioned suspension and expulsion more than once. My children live a blessed life, they get everything they want. DD goes horse riding three times a week, and I am thinking of buying her a horse."

@stressedmummmm not sure what you're asking and why, because you just summed up everything in those sentences. You raised an entitled brat and they have no fear of consequences because there are none.
Being on children's side doesn't mean it's you and them against the world. It's about creating some boundaries and teaching them common values and respect to others. Instead, your choice was the one of antagonising them against everyone who doesn't believe they are crapping golden nuggets.

I went through a rough patch with my adhd son at this age - hormone surges x impulsivity x oppositional defiance = a bloody awful time for everyone.
Here’s what I have done to help my son behave better:
1- lots of reading to understand his neurodiversity, and then separating things he can control and things he cant. Fidgeting/forgetting things/reacting in a split second - little control so little consequence. Gentle reminders if these things are causing issues for others but ignoring things that aren’t a big deal.
2- firm boundaries for things he can control. Speaking rudely to me or others, doing things he knows he shouldn’t etc etc - warning first of the consequence for minor things, instant consequence for major things. Consequences dependent on seriousness and range from being grounded to losing all tech. I think the messaging your friends thing is really very serious! So I would be having a chat about this and setting a big consequence such as losing all tech for a week if that happens again!
3 - I don’t double punish. If he’s in trouble at school, I will talk to him about why his behaviour was wrong but I won’t add extra punishments on top of detentions.
4 - explaining the whys is extremely important. Especially if you think she’s neurodiverse. My son has a very strong need for fairness, so is much more responsive when he understands why his behaviour was wrong.
5 - positive reinforcement. My son’s self esteem took a big knock when he was in trouble a lot at school. He felt unliked and developed a “so what” attitude. He was put on a “positive report”, which gave positive goals rather than “dont’s”. E.g. “I will contribute respectfully to class discussions” - it gave him good things to aim for instead of focusing on negatives. It helped improve his relationships with teachers, and it made him see he was capable. I modelled this at home and gave him achievable goals such as “being kind to brother”, “set table for dinner”. With a small reward for doing these things for a set period of time. With wanting to get your daughter a horse - that’s a huge gift, so I would maybe set some bigger goals over a longer period of time.

I understand it is hard to put boundaries and consequences in place when you’re feeling mum guilt and when neurodiversity is a factor. But they are so important! Your daughter needs to learn these hard lessons to function in life and though she won’t thank you now, it’s ultimately the best thing for her. Rewarding the good and explaining why goes a long way to show you’re doing it for the right reasons and that you are always on her side. Good luck and stay strong op, hope things improve xx

The judgement levelled on here towards a mother in distress who is reaching out in desperation is horrific, abelist and staggeringly simplistic.

I agree with this completely. It's not just the judgement towards the OP, it's the vitriol towards the child, who is more than likely ND. Just in the last few posts this young girl has been called an 'entitled brat' a 'nasty little madam' etc. Horrible and very sad.

It's very clear that this girl and her Mum need help and support.

Ok cool. Just demonstrating my point. The callousness and lack of empathy shown by some people here regarding situations they have no lived experience of is beyond arrogant.

Luckily some of us have grown up and realise we don't know everything.

Btw my son who was like this is thriving now due to a totally different parenting style. He's getting straight As, his teachers love him, he has a part time job and is a delight. I came from an old school parenting background and it worked for my other kids. Did fuck all for him.

Attitudes like yours made it so much harder to seek the right kind of help - help which has been intensive and expensive. We are not lazy, shit parents (and I count the op in that). But judge away.

Your response doesn't reflect anything I've said really, I could go into massive detail about various different ND kids behaviours including my own DC, DN and Cousins DC as well as friends DC, at the same time I could also tell you about people I know who have insisted their DCs bad behaviour was down to ND despite many professionals saying there is no evidence of anything but no boundaries/consequences. So come at me all you want and tell me that it's perfectly OK for people to use ND as an excuse for poor behaviour with no evidence behind that, which in turn has a terribly negative effect on how people view those with actual ND. It won't change my mind.

It costs at least a couple of grand a month to keep a horse as well.

Not unless you're shoeing it with gold it doesn't. I've kept me and a horse on less than that.

OP when you say 'fighting' do you mean physical fighting or verbal arguing? Neither is good but one is far worse.

It just sounds like you have a young child with no boundaries, a lot of material things, quite spoiled in some ways but quite lacking in other ways. She may be neurodiverse. She's coping with the fact that her brother is ND. Your own experience of being parented hasn't equipped you well to be a parent. It's almost as if you're trying to buy her friendship rather than parent her. I'd find some parenting classes somewhere and get professional help if I were you.

An odd, and quite insulting characterisation of classrooms there. When they're noisy, it's usually because of entitled and unruly pupils. Your description of the exclusion process is also inaccurate - I wonder how many you've attended. I've attended dozens and, sadly, children with SEND are 5 times more likely to be excluded than others, including those with EHCPs. OP's daughter doesn't have SEND to the best of our knowledge - the school haven't suggested it and her behaviour is that which could be expected from someone encountering secondary school behaviour policies who has hitherto never been introduced to boundaries.

@TanginaBarrons

You have a very peculiar interpretation of what you call 'old school' behaviour approaches. Nobody is suggesting corporal punishment or zero tolerance. The concept of clearly setting boundaries and explaining the reasons for consequences is not old fashioned, it's basic parenting. And as for your uninformed, ignorant and insulting use of the phrase, 'attitudes like yours', well, attitudes like mine have helped children regulate their behaviour, integrate into society and avoid lives of crime and exploitation over decades of working with and caring for children whose behaviours would make your smug blood run cold.

Again, to those who've jumped straight to neurodiversity...

It's OP herself who says that she's spoiled her. And this:
I always try to show them I am on their side. Kind of us against the world. When my daughter gets into trouble I am the first to defend her,

Sanctions haven't worked at school, because every time that school has raised behaviour issues, mum had defended her DD instead of backing up the teachers and their sanctions. So why would DD respond to sanctions when her mum's made it clear that they're unfair and they don't matter?

Given the information that OP has given us herself, the above and the fact that DD gets everything she asks for, I think that Occam's razor could well apply here. The lack of boundaries, of expectations, of ever hearing 'no' and if ever being reproached at home, is, on my opinion, more likely to be the cause of all this than neurodiversity.

Yes, DD is clearly unhappy, but that may well be because she's not had the security of boundaries and knowing that her parents are strong and emotionally able to keep her safe. She sees that they're a pushover, so how can she rely on them?

Mum and daughter (maybe the whole family) need counselling first of all. And let's see if the counsellor suspects ND.

Or how about employing a bit of empathy and nuance and acknowledging that sometimes, just sometimes, "bad behaviour" is actually disregultion and not simple.

All I am saying is that you (and me for that matter) do not know the drivers behind behaviour for any kids other than our own. Would you tell me that I'm using nd as an excuse for my son's behaviour? I do recognise what she is describing and it sounds like my son whose behaviour is driven by shame/oppositional ADHD and disregultion. To be told I'm effectively making excuses, being a shit parent, that he's a brat and to double down on discipline would be supremely unhelpful.

It's not a competition. I use traditional boundaries for my other kids. Works a dream and they are model citizens. It does.not.work. for all kids. The absolute adherence to this being the best and primary way to deal with kids has been very damaging to kids like my son (and many others I know)

Totally agree with this, school and parents need to be singing off the same hymn sheet and all too often that doesn't happen these days.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh because I don't want you to feel worse BUT it does sound like your DD is being a brat and it's likely to be caused by her tantrums getting her her own way for literally her whole life.

The fact that you've come here to ask if you should side with her when her behaviour is so poor and to then ask what punishments should be or how long they should last for says a lot about how little boundaries have been set for DD over the years.

You need to really stand firm on this. She's going to meet you head on and it sounds like your default position has always been to give in. Her behaviour is mouth-open shocking, though. You cannot allow it to continue.

This is so long overdue, OP. If you don't sort this now she's going to ramp at school and could really ruin things for herself.

Good luck and maybe call in the Supernanny 😬

No. If OP had come here asking for advice about how to help with her DDs behaviour without mentioning ND which she had no grounds to even put in there then ok, but as usual, unproven and undiagnosed ND is added into these posts often, without even a hint of its probability being suggested by a teacher/professional/clinician.

The way the OP describes the behaviour is that her daughter knows exactly what she's doing and is doing it to get her own way, or just to be disruptive (googling a teacher while sitting in their class!?!)
We will have to agree to disagree, and I will always have an issue with the current trend of any bad behaviour being marked as ND with zero evidence to suggest it (and not relevant to this particular op, but also every other insulting reason for people to claim they are ND with no assessment, no diagnosis and no clinician even suspecting it, yet mockingly go around acting out stereotypes to the extreme while labelling themselves)

Um, apart from my own studies and outside mainstream secondary provision?

Around half a million - if you assume an average of 6 lessons per day, exclude before school, lunchtime and after school sessions, no holiday revision/coursework/controlled assessments, performances, rehearsals, room changes, first aid situations, governor meetings, covering for colleagues...

Not many exclusion panels, true, but that's because it's a failure of process and will lead to an exclusion being overturned at IRP if it's down to an inability or unwillingness to meet SEND, so they've only been for a very small number who have had no SEND, a strong record of multiple interventions to support and improve behaviour without success and they have acted in a way that was a clear breach of the behaviour policy and remaining at the school would prove severely detrimental to the safety and wellbeing of other members of the school community. For some whose needs were not being met in the school environment, there has been AP individually tailored to their needs and regularly reviewed, another couple where EOTAS has been the most appropriate location, few needed EHCPs naming specialist schools in both the state and private sector, absolutely zero illegal exclusions or offrolling in the process.

Kind of fine with the 'odd', even though you meant it to be a pejorative term, as that's how people would have described me for finding the noise - both auditory and visual - of classrooms as painful. Music was a particular one that hurt when a Head of Music breezily declared that they didn't believe in headphones or volume controls, but by then, I was dealing with the ND children besides themselves with the pain of the drumming unit, rather than having to be trapped in a classroom with them.

I was an undiagnosed autistic child and punishments never worked on me. I can see now that me ‘acting out’ was a clear cry for help, but obviously was met with punishment instead, which just made my issues worse.

@TanginaBarrons

While I see your point, from what OP says the school haven't raised a concern re ASD/ADHD, which they very commonly do now.

I have a child with ASD so understand your points re traditional punishments, although I would add that poor behaviour like this (bullying/abusing siblings/vindictive behaviour/tantrums to get own way) are not typical of ND children.

I would also add that I have taught children who's behaviour is appalling purely because they haven't been parented or they have always been allowed their way. This is incredibly difficult to deal with, especially when you call home and you're met with 'They shouldn't have to do things they don't want to do' or other general excuses that give the message to the child that they don't have to do as they're told because they won't get in trouble at home anyway.

My son was similar; so difficult dealing with oppositional and demand avoidant behaviours during his teen years. Totally agree with much of what you say particular points 4 and 5 - my son has very strong sense of justice so we would have to logically explain the consequence of a particular behaviour. We persisted for years and eventually it paid off; he came out of his teen years and is now settling down.

This is sound advice.

She Sounds like a child who needs Responsibility.
When we do everything for them it dont work.
How about giving her a main responsibility in the house.
If you are planning to " buy her a horse " this too, wont work.
When I was 11 I was given responsibility to clean the bathroom on a Saturday morning. And Dad paid me ( equivalent about £5 now)
This money was not wasted it was saved towards my summer holiday.
Ask your Daughter what Job she would like responsibility for ( a small job)
PAY ON SAME DAY for instant satisfaction
It could turn around her attitude to being more positive.

I get what you are saying but unfortunately less "desirable" manifestations of ND, like the behaviour the op is describing, tend to get bracketed as spoilt/nasty/bullying etc. (As this thread has beautifully demonstrated).

In my experience schools do not often look beyond this so will double down on behaviour measures whilst often overlooking the ND - it happened to me.

These behaviours actually are quite common in ADHD btw. Particularly the oppositional profile (also ODD) but less sympathetic than other behaviours so often blamed on parenting etc which can be soul destroying. Trust me, I know.

So my experience (with my rigourously diagnosed child who is doing so much better with meds and NVR therapy) is redundant?