For not allowing ex to take 1 year old to America

[MissNP196]

I have an 18 month old who my ex only started consistently having in November (he has her every Saturday, no overnight stay) which has been going well.

A few days ago, he suddenly announced that he would like to take her to America in April to celebrate his grandparents birthday. I said that as nice as it would be for her to meet her great grandparents, the trip is far too much, too soon, as she is only 1 and has never even spent a night with him. I feel this holiday would be extremely unsettling for her as she would be in an unfamiliar environment with unfamiliar people, without her mum.

Was my response unreasonable? Ex has responded angrily saying her will seek permission from court. Does anyone with experience of this know if this would likely be approved?

I'm social worker and have inside experience of family courts. He won't even get seen by a judge in regards to this. There is significant back log in the family courts and unless there are safeguarding concerns (domestic abuse etc), families are being told to sort it out in mediation. Even if it did make it in front of a judge, I've witnessed in the last year, judges giving parents a rollicking for wasting their time when they should be dealing with child protection concerns, he definitely would get a telling off for being so unrealistic and not even financially providing for his child. Just stick to your guns, introduce overnights and let him build a relationship with her over the next year so maybe they could go away next year. What a dope. Ha.

Absolutely not! He can buy his grandparents an iPad and get someone to teach them how to do video calls instead.

Are they turning away applications now? It's been well over a year since I was last involved with the courts and there were backlog issues then.

YANBU - You are never unreasonable if enforcing what is best for your child (and not what's best for some adult twat you have no duty of care towards whatsoever).

He can't have fully thought this through surley?

I'd put a bet on him returning her before the flight even took off if you allowed it, which you absolutely should not.

Wouldn’t he have to have your written permission to take her out of the country? Im not sure how it works though ?

OP, if he goes to court, he will be told he needs to have her overnight/ several days in a row before he can take her anywhere. Also, other things will be considered - if, for example, he is American (or his family is), you can say you worry he will not bring her back.

But - if he is an ok dad to her it is in your DD interest to have contact with him; and for you to have a civil relationship with your ex so you can co-parent. Try to reason with him, explain that you will be ok with holidays in the future once your DD is older and once he has her, for example, for a few days in the row and is ok with parenting her. Tell him courts will cost a fortune and the money will be better spent on your DD. Offer him overnight visits, maybe starting once every two weeks.

Do it all in writing, keep the record of it, be polite and reasonable. And please apply to CMS!

Yeah it needs to be built up over a few years. It’s bonkers people suggesting it could be built up by April.

Firstly that’s too short a period. Secondly, the child is still very young and may not be used to being away from their primary career for that long and so far away. And finally, a man who wants to spend time with his child should be doing it anyway not ignoring the child (and not paying maintenance) for months and suddenly trying to do his own intensive course in “being a proper father” with the sole aim of being allowed to take his child abroad To see family. Children aren’t toys or trophies to be used and paraded about when it suits you.

I get what you’re saying, @3plusUs but you’re looking at it as an involved and responsible parent. My cynical brain says that he fancies a spring holiday in sunny Florida and has talked his grandparents into paying the airfares “so they can meet their great-granddaughter.” They probably have no idea that he’s never looked after her overnight and that she’ll be distraught without a trusted caregiver. Toddlers have little sense of time and she won’t understand that she’s going home eventually.

Totally different when she’s older, of course, but it’s not a good idea until she’s spent far more time with her father.

If this man was decent he would have offered to pay for OP to go as well. My friend who split with his partner when their child was a toddler wasn’t the most consistent father. But he paid for his ex to go visit his family in Nigeria with him and his daughter multiple times after the breakup until she was about 12. As I said ,he wasn’t the best father to her as at times when she was younger as he was too busy partying when he should have been with his daughter. However at least he acknowledged his inconsistency/relative lack of parenting and ensured the mother could come along instead of just swooping in and taking the child abroad by himself.

@Fageyoghurt But that would involve admitting to his GP’s that his daughter barely knows him-and I’d put money on them paying for the entire trip (by that I mean that they’re paying to fly him and DD out there, without realizing the situation).

At 1 years old she's still a baby. There's no way I'd let anyone take my baby abroad where I couldn't reach them quickly in an emergency or be there in a heartbeat if my child needed me.
Theres no court in the land who would force you to agree to that so I wouldnt worry too much about it.
Her Dad should build up to having her overnight first and then when she's used to him and happy to go overnight with him and when she's a bit older, then he can talk holidays with you.
I think taking a 1 year old baby away from it's Mother who is their main carer for a holiday would be distressing for her because she wouldn't understand at that age where you had gone.

I agree, I think this is the case. His grandparents won’t have a clue and because they’re older and are not in good health they probably didn’t notice he wasn’t sending them regular photo updates of his daughter for a large chunk of time.

My friend’s ex had a good relationship with his family in Nigeria independently of him, and it’s through her (the mother) the family abroad communicated with the kid, so I think they were all aware he wasn’t the most consistent father.

Just no way! Not until he pays regular maintenance and has his own place setup for her to even stay overnight.

Court will not side with him anyway given his current level of ‘responsibility’.

He cannot take her without your permission, end of. And that's what court will say. Plus he will need to get her a passport and be cannot do that without your permission either. Frankly I would be very reluctant for this to happen. It's hard to travel with a baby that young especially on a transatlantic flight and I would not trust him.

Yes he does need this. Hague Treaty. Stops non custodial parents absconding with children. And they take it seriously in the US. I was grilled every time I traveled with my daughter.

If you have an email address for him Id email him making sure its really clear so he can't just claim it got lost in the texts. I'd reiterate as per your text last month you're happy for him to have overnight stays as soon as he has a safe and appropriate set up for her with cot, toys, car seat etc. Then once he has her consistently for a weekly overnight you'd be happy to make a plan to increase that working towards him being able to take her to see the grandparents when the relationship between him and DD is sufficiently developed so that DD can comfortably and confidently travel with him. Then if he takes you to court you can show that you've been very reasonable and tried to facilitate her relationship with her father and it's been his choices stopping him and DD from having a closer relationship.

Court would never say he could take her. She's far too young to be away from her main carer for more than a few hours. Instead they'd start questioning his lack of financial support. He sounds dangerous and I'd get the court involved immediately.

I have now sent a clear, concise email detailing my reasons as to why I feel this trip would not be in DD's interests and a plan of what he can do to build up to being able to take her on holiday in the future.

Thank you for all the advice - you have all been very helpful ❤️

I think instead of a straight no you should give him a chance to prove that he is consistent and reliable for your child (as in tell him if overnights go well etc then yes) also just to add technically you would of needed his permission to take your child on holiday (as he has pr and you do not have a child arrangement order)

if he takes you to court this holiday will probably will be ordered unless there is a massive concern over dad and the welfare of the child

talking from experience here of a lot of court battles over a child, the judges don’t look at anything but what’s best for a child, even not having a cot etc wouldn’t be a reason to not allow overnight stays, if they have a place to sleep then dad should be allowed a overnight

the courts hate parent conflicts and will favour the parent who are the most co-operative and the least confrontational

As stated previously in the thread, I did get his permission to take her on holiday last year.

I spoke to a solicitor yesterday who said it would be unlikely that it would be approved in court due to the reasons I've stated on here.

You also mentioned the courts will look at 'what's best for the child'... so is being shipped off to America in an unfamiliar environment with unfamiliar people, in a completely different time zone without her primary caregiver what's best for my 18 month old?

YANBU

The op has suggested a plan which shows that she is very willing to work with him to increase his contact whilst being child centric. So long as it's reasonable that won't go against her.

A solicitor will tell you that as they want to take your money

I am not having a go here just telling you from past experience what courts are like

they would deem your ex taking your child on holiday as the same unknown environment as when you took your child on holiday (minus mum but courts don’t take a primary care giver into account as they see both mum and dad as equal) therefore if mum can take a child to strange place then dad could too it’s no different

as I say I am not having a go I am just speaking from experience of a long long family court process, solicitors will also drag out the process to get more money from you