To answer my friend honestly about her partner

[Whatdoyouthink65]

Context: My best friend from school and I have fairly infrequent contact now, but are both still available when one or other needs something ( like an opinion or a venting row about something). We don’t see each other much for geographical, familial commitment and conflicting work schedules. My friend has one child from a previous relationship which ended with acrimonious divorce and complex nasty custody battle.
When she met that person I did not like him, told her so nicely ( when she asked for my honest opinion- not unsolicited) and it changed our relationship for a long time. When she got divorced she actually confessed that my concerns about him had been entirely valid and she wished she had listened. I never hold this against her because we’ve all been guilty of being ‘rose tinted’ about partners at some point. After the divorce our relationship returned to how its was pre mariage.

She has a new partner of approximately one year. They appear very happy together and have moved in together- she plans to have another child ( his first bio) soon. He has fully accepted her daughter and has stepped into the ‘ dad’ role fully.

We arranged for us to all meet up recently and she wanted my honest opinion about him. I’m really torn about being honest with her again and potentially ruining our relationship or not acting on my gut and telling her a blasé “ yea he’s nice” answer.

I don’t have issues with everyone at all; in fact I can think of very few other people I don’t like. On the surface there is nothing to dislike about him. He’s polite and as above seemingly makes her feel good/ happy. I just didn’t warm to him initially and always trust my gut , but gave him benefit of doubt ( maybes he’s nervous etc).

However, my toddler took herself to the toilet in our house, then shouted for me when she needed her bum wiping ( as is normal for ourhouse) he got up at the same time as me and I assumed he was going to check on his step daughter who was playing alone in our house at that point. He wasn’t; he opened the toilet door and went to wipe my toddlers bum. Thankfully I was only a step behind him, slid myself between him and her and closed the door, saying that I would do it. My toddler looked terrified at someone she just met an hour earlier being in the bathroom with her ( she’s fairly shy and had barely spoken to him).
it made me REALLY uncomfortable, but I tried to think maybe he was just trying to be helpful although it couldn’t shake being uncomfortable.

later the same day me, my partner, my friend and the new boyfriend went for dinner with their 1 child, our toddler and our 8m old. During dinner our toddler asked her dad to pass some crayons, and the boyfriend seemingly misheard and said “ oh you need the toilet , I’ll take you, come on”. Before I even had chance to interject my partner had immediately said no and passed her the crayons she had actually asked for.

the boyfriend also undermined us several times ( for health reasons we don’t allow our toddler commercial desserts because we can’t measure the sugar in them) their daughter was having a dessert and we had said our toddler could have fruit ( she’s normally very happy with this), she had a bit of envy and asked why she couldn’t have chocolate brownies too and I explained it, she accepted it and then immediately after, the boyfriend said “ don’t listen to mummy uncle will buy you a brownie”. Again we stopped this, but there was a few incidents throughout the day of this nature.

I have real concerns as to his safety around small girls although I have nothing more than my opinion/ feelings to present to my friend.

my friend has text asking “ what do you think?”
would it be unreasonable based on the described incident above to answer her honestly saying that I have some concerns or should I give a safe answer of “ yeah he seems nice”.

Hello ,

Op I work in a safeguarding environment. Not normal at all. Not far fetched. You have a moral responsibility to tell her this is not normal and to safeguard her daughter. Speak up please. Men or women who don't know a child don't offer to wipe their bottoms. Don't take the easy route, this is how terrible things happen.

She has RTFT

Yes, this is why I'm not in agreement with those saying to ignore the brownie incident. "Don’t listen to mummy uncle will buy you a brownie” Uncle? He's taking a lot for granted, isn't he! It was the first time you'd met him, and I'm quite sure you don't invite randoms to consider themselves family members.

The bum-wiping incident is obviously very odd - and, following on from that, mishearing DD's crayon request and jumping up ... as if he was just desperate to take her to the loo.

It really is disturbing, all the more so as this was your first time of meeting him. I can't imagine why someone would move so quickly to undermine you, tell your child to call him uncle, and to get her with her pants off. Does he just grab every chance he gets, regardless, or is he expecting to have to stop get arrested soon, I wonder?

It's not nothing. I agree this is a conversation best had with your friend in person. Wishing you well.

Sorry, I missed OP's update.

You have honestly done the right thing, especially by letting her mum know too what went on with him around your DD so someone she isn't about to cut off, can watch over her DD.

She's a single mum whose been in a horrble Dv relationship, has come out the other side, and desperately wants to be loved, and wants another child and for her current DD to have a family. She is probably defending him and cutting you off because she doesn't want to believe he's also a "bad one" like her exH, and maybe feels like she's somehow defective and attracts the bad types and isn't savvy enough to spot the signs. I'll bet everything i own she definitely doesn't want to acknowledge she may have put her DD in danger from someone with predatory intentions. She may also be terrified at having to start over, again, and being single and lonely.

I really, really hope her mum steps in, and that she comes around and realises this guy might be innocent, but something isn't right about him and it isn't worth the risk to her DD, and that he's swiftly removed from her childs life without anything having happened to her.
A parents priority should always be their childs safety, no man is worth risking her daughter for.

@Whatdoyouthink65 I suspected from your OP you'd end up blocked, I'm sorry. I hope your friend reads this thread. I also hope she accesses some therapy to help her with her vulnerabilities with relationships. Predators love someone who's previously been abused as a partner. They seek those women out.

I like PP spoke to Dp about this and he has a good friend and ex colleague who was a support worker for very physically disabled children. He's also a single parent to 5 kids, 4 are girls. (Mum passed away 💔)
This young man is very capable and truly lovely guy who is very comfortable to change nappies, he did tons of personal care in his job and he is "on it" when kids need something. Eg, he popped over a few days ago to see DP and when having baby cuddles with our wee dd, he grabbed a bib for her slobbering without thinking, because he knows how to parent.
DD had a good old poo and he immediately handed her to her dad.
Even though he's an experienced girl dad, he's clearly not bothered about personal care etc, he went absolutely nowhere near my DD nappy because it isn't something anyone would do whilst their parents are there and there is no reason for anyone else to do it. It's not necessary.

I think that the partner of friend is being overly jovial, making a point of trying to appear, "he's so hands on" or "child whisperer" type of bloke with the fun uncle energy, I'll guess with lots of tickling/play fighting/rough play who gives money or treats to kids so they want to be around him and he's already crossed physical boundaries, so children won't know differently. It's actually a very clever tactic, so if a child says this person did something inappropriate, they can use "it was a tickle/playing/they needed toilet" as a reason to cast doubt on what a child is saying. Luckily he's been so blatant that it's set off alarm bells, some predators who do this go a slower pace and are more difficult to spot. When they're blatant we gaslight ourselves into this false sense of security and a bias that "not nice Fred, he's just a big kid himself" type of thing, we almost bat off our suspicion and tell ourselves not to be silly and worse, berate ourselves for not being "kind", when Fred is just being helpful.

This type of person to anyone reading this who doesn't use the correct terminology for their children's genitals is why we must start.
It's why we should always from day one use penis or vagina etc, so your children can say with confidence if ever asked by police etc what body part was touched without it being something that could be disputed. A nick name for a genitalia should always be avoided with children, for that exact reason.

You did good OP and I hope that this man is just a blundering dimwit, trying to make a good impression by being helpful etc but again, I just suspect something more sinister is afoot here x

EW he sounds awful. Even the brownie thing really bugs me. Who tf does that to someone’s child they just met? “Uncle”?! Nope - just absolutely no.

trust your gut. I’d personally tell her, as she’s moved way too fast to allow this person into her child’s life, and it’s deeply sad to me that kids don’t get a say.

Whoops, sorry, missed the update. Thank goodness you said something - well done, OP!!
regardless of her response now - the blocking on social media - it will be in her head, and hopefully she’ll pay a bit more attention.

I feel for her daughter. :(

Can you do a background check on him?

Well done for saying something to your friend. It is very odd that he wanted to go to the toilet with your dd. I would feel very uncomfortable about another man getting involved (unless they are that child’s parent).
You’ve highlighted the red flags and that’s all you can do.

@Frangipanyoul8r
No OP called it as it was. Her being damaged is probably what attracted this man in the first place

Unfortunately there are people who have a pattern of choosing simply awful partners. I do know people who have broken this destructive cycle. Every single time has involved time being single and working on themselves.

OP has said her friend has a 'need' to be with someone over being single which is sad.

Paedophiles /sex offenders use all sorts of behavior ... Some are so much more overt than others...

If this is rhe case with this man... He would be acting with plausible deniabiltity when challenged....i was only helping my girlfriends busy friends etc etc...

Paedophiles don't just act in one stereotyped way..
They will do anything for (out of sight) access to children. And tbh some more overt it often adds to their arousal cycle...

@Frangipanyoul8r thanks for your opinion. Firstly as stated in the same post you quoted; it wasn’t a message it was a video call.

Secondly, you have no idea how she refers to herself about this. She actually has good insight into this, and REGULARLY refers to herself as damaged, so I specifically picked this word, as part of a technique called ‘echoing’ to try and get what I was saying to go into her brain.

I am not victim blaming- I think her ex husband is the absolute scum of the earth, he is 100% to blame for his actions, and nothing my friend ( or anyone else) has done or does ever justify their abusers behaviours.

The fact remains that abusers damage their victims. I find it interesting that me using this term triggered you, rather than the fact there is children’s safety at risk.

For the sake of her child, their potential future child, and any other children he might come into contact with, I’d risk the friendship. I’d normally say don’t get involved but in this case this is too weird and there’s children’s lives at stake.

She’s not daft, she will have noticed but doesn’t want to admit it to herself so someone else telling her might give her the push she needs. All you can do is tell her, tell her why he gives you a bad vibe, then if she refuses to believe you, she will soon come crawling back apologetic if something happens, god forbid, but your conscience will be clear as you warned her.

There’s nothing else for it, IMO.

Can you/she do a background check on him? She’s very irresponsible.

@LauderSyme it sounds wild doesn't it, who'd be so openly predatory? But it's often a case of hiding in plain sight.

well done OP.
Your conversation sounded spot on.
I am sorry that you have lost the friendship over this.

The only consolation is that now you have told her, she is more likely to notice this stuff with her own child, and more likely to be suspicious.
Sadly she in unlikely to leave him.

One of the great unsaid things about men who are peadophiles is that they are often able to be very nice. Very charming, very caring, that is how they are able to work themselves into places where they have access to kids. They are often very 'good' with kids, that is why they become well loved scout leaders etc and everyone is so shocked when the truth comes out.

So it is unlikely that she will leave.

Well done for telling her mum too though, that will hopefully help.

Calling someone “damaged” is very triggering for someone who’s been a victim of abuse. It perpetuates a cycle of self loathing that you are reinforcing by calling her that. The cycle of self loathing then leads to further unhealthy relationships as your friend feels she’s not worthy of love and respect in the way that others are.

Of course she needs to end the relationship and this guy is clearing dangerous, but I wanted to flag that you reinforcing that she is “damaged” isn’t helping her.

@Frangipanyoul8r thanks for your expertise. I don’t routinely call victims damaged. I am very much trauma informed. I ECHOED her sentiment which is known to open up brain pathways which are otherwise firmly closed off by a person. It may be triggering for her - maybe that’s why she uses the term, but her being triggered may trigger her into protecting her daughter.

I am sorry to say that her daughters safety is more of a concern for me at this time than the possibility of reinforcing a belief she holds. Yes my friend needs to recover/heal etc I absolutely agree.

I don’t need to ‘pussyfoot around’ when I believe her daughter is becoming/ ( or hopefully not ) has become a victim of sexual abuse.

You are great professional, you work in the field and no need to pussyfoot or accept all the conversation about trauma informed/not informed. The mother of the little girl can buy herself Dr Jessica Taylor materials and process this safely but there is a little girl who may be in very real danger and you are right to take an action. I have never seen in any culture strange men to run after little girls to do their cleaning for them in toilets. That is as bizarre as it sounds and is revealing that this man has something weird going on with him.

Cleaning strangers kids in toilet is illegal, even teachers do not do that in schools. Taking action will be best.

100%

It's insidious behaviour, so many red flags, and hopefully she asked because deep down she knows something is off.

Hopefully her mum, who said she 'couldn't put her finger on what was amiss but didn't like him either', will express her concerns to her daughter. Something just isn't right, and his behaviour aligns with everything above.

@Whatdoyouthink65 Would you consider a report to SS, so they can check him out/assess too? I'd be very tempted in this situation, as the mother seems oblivious.

Good on you, op. Difficult but you have certainly done the right thing.

@Whatdoyouthink65 any updates hen?

@Lwrenn
Sadly not, last time it took 3 years though so I wasn’t expecting miracles this time. I hope that she’s thinking about what I said, and considering his behaviour with her DD - even if she never speaks to me again.

She won’t have been expecting what I said, but
probably knew it wouldn’t be good because I’d called instead of just texting back ” he seems nice” or whatever pleasantry.

Well she's lost a Good friend behaving so appallingly.

I do hope she realises what you said come from genuine concern as opposed to gaslighting herself but I'm doubtful.

Either way you will always know you did everything in your power to protect her dd