To be haunted by this (Israel/Hamas)

[newstart24]

The second picture, of the little girl sitting on her mother’s (I presume) knee. My DD is a similar age and I can’t get it out of my head. I just hope she got out of the situation and is ok. This country has its problems but bloody hell, when you think what other people in the world are going through, we are all so lucky to live here.

Israel shares horrific October 7 footage as it denies genocide charge

https://mol.im/a/13005021

As I say, I happened to come across that latest news report and the picture of that little girl looking so frightened really got to me.

Of course I feel deeply upset about all the Palestinian children who are suffering unimaginably in this conflict too, and I have expressed that in numerous posts in this very thread. God, I wouldn’t be fucking human if I didn’t feel immense anguish about ALL those poor children. It’s a horrific situation.

This is rather patronising TBH. I think most people are well aware of that basic fact!

And to all the posters asking if I joined only to post this and whether I’m some sort of agent (you absolute weirdos, lol) you’re very welcome to check with @MNHQ, who will confirm that I’ve been active on Mumsnet for many years and simply changed my name for 2024.

For some people it’s the only way they can reason why people are so cruel. Others it’s just a wish, or a hope, rather than that they believe it’s guaranteed. It’s like saying rest in peace, for some people.

others do believe there is a place after death, that is not nothing, and that is okay, especially for those in Gaza or similar. I can see why they believe, I know we should face up to the fact there is likely nothing after death, but I do wonder if I was in that situation would I believe there was somewhere better after death. Particularly if I was living in utter hell. It’s easy for someone in a typical western place to say that we need to face up to reality and stop telling ourselves it’s better after death, but for some people, like those children in Gaza who have lost their whole family and they are utterly alone, if it comforts them in anyway then fair play to them.

i think it’s all a heap of shit, but who am I to tell others to wisen up and not believe. If they want to believe and aren’t harming anyone well that is fine with me.

What an odd comment to draw on. It’s a turn of phrase for most people isn’t it? FWIW I’m a white nearly-40 year old atheist. I have been floored by the suffering of Palestine and also by the beauty of Islam actually. I was far from prejudiced before - I mentioned on an separate thread that the king-held belief I have that we invaded Iraq illegally and with criminal intent was reinforced by the stories I’ve been told by my cousin who served in that war. He is very traumatised by that conflict.

but yes, I hope there is a heaven.

people who want Israel to stop the genocide are not Hamas sympathisers, we are decent human beings.

The issue for me is that many posters have seemingly been unable to express sympathy for the subject of my post (that poor young girl). Instead they’ve leapt on this thread to accuse me of wanting to nuke Gaza (WTAF) or being some kind of Israeli agent. Which quite frankly, tells me absolutely everything I need to know about those posters - and it’s not that they’re decent human beings. I’m glad Mumsnet has deleted some of worst posts.

And i really would like to point out that I too recognise the suffering of the Israeli victims. It’s as simple as that. I have no desire to minimise anyone’s pain.

I just cannot believe we are watching such intolerable suffering day in- day out in Gaza and the West Bank. the fact that I have a better understanding of the human body than I did 112 days ago because I have seen what those US weapons do to the human body. I’ll be at Saturdays March because I couldn’t be anywhere else, but also because I need to be around other people who feel the same too.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. I personally can’t draw a line under the suffering these children have gone through with a glib “turn of phrase” that allows us to conveniently move on with our lives. Let’s look the horrific reality in the face, that these innocent children have had their lives brutally cut short, their futures have been ripped away from them and now they’re gone for good. Because that’s the only way anything will truly change.

If anything good comes out of this horrific conflict, it will be that Hamas are obliterated from the earth and innocent Israelis and Palestinians (the vast, vast majority who just want to get on with their lives and see their kids grow up) can live together in peace. Will that ever happen?

Do you know what? That is really insulting. There is nothing ‘glib’ about how I am advocating for what I believe in here. Know that I am protesting, contacting politicians and sharing the content to everyone I know. Not a single item on the boycott list has entered my home since I became aware of these grotesque companies back in October. I am absolutely fucking enraged by what Israel are doing to the Palestinians every single day.

Will that happen? I have absolutely no hope that can happen I’m afraid. Do you? The IDF are unstoppable.

Please God, Hamas will never stop the IDF.
Hopefully the IDF will stop Hamas so that the OP's original photo will never happen again.

No one is drawing a line by saying they hope there is something better for them. We can see that they have gone through something horrific and are now dead, and try change what is happening. The fact that someone says I hope there is something better for them is not taking away the awful reality of what is happening, but just hoping that maybe somehow there is some place where they can reunite.

no one is moving on by saying that, they are just simply expressing a wish, that maybe they believe in or maybe they don’t, that maybe there is some hope for these people whose lives are been utterly destroyed. There’s nothing wrong with that.

and these people are still campaigning to stop the genocide, trying to make the world a less awful place.

its not your place to tell people they cannot believe because you don’t believe or you don’t believe it’s helpful.

often it’s a simple kindness to these people, and for some it’s the only thing they have left.

I’ll be at Saturdays March

I won’t be at Saturday’s march. Not because I don’t want the war to stop - of course I do, as 99% of us do. But because I worry the marches attract a (small but nevertheless present) antisemitic element, and I don’t want to be anywhere near that.

What about all the Palestinians that are in harms way, simply by living there. Or the hostages that are still there?

there is no way to totally eliminate hamas. Most of the high up people aren’t even in Gaza. So are Israel gonna start bombing Qatar or wherever else they are. Because somehow I think that will not go down well.

are the IDF just gonna keep bombing Gaza and kill every last Palestinian. And then build luxury hotels on the land?? That seems to be what they’re aiming for.

if it was truly about eliminating hamas they would not be attacking the West Bank. They would not have attacked and bombed throughout most of the last 75 years. Hamas did not exist for many of these years.

This. And frankly it’s a deep held belief of many Muslims that heaven is paradise and and end to the suffering. I’d love for that to be true because thousands and thousands of children have died terrified.

that maybe there is some hope for these people whose lives are been utterly destroyed

But there isn’t any hope for these people - not in the real world, not right now. Perhaps it gives families who have lost children in the conflict some sort of comfort - I can see that and I hope it does. But for us westerners watching from afar, it’s more a way of making ourselves feel better than anything else.

Quite. There were videos of protestors at the antisemitism March engaging in Islamaphobia too. Unfortunately it’s inevitable that a few bad apples also show up.

Yes, that’s my concern unfortunately.

You're correct that eliminating Hamas is virtually impossible.
Other than killing those involved in October 7th this war is about disarming Hamas. Imploding all tunnels used to hide hostages. Destroying all rocket launchers. Creating fortified buffer zones around Israel. Ensuring that weapons aren't being imported etc.
Israel are fighting to ensure that Hamas will never again be capable of another Oct 7th.

Shame they couldn’t achieve this without absolutely flattening Gaza though, isn’t it?!
you do realise that Gaza in inhabitable now? Soon all those people will need to leave and the world will also have to bear witness to over 2 million Palestinian refugees fleeing to the Sinai desert.
have you seen the ‘plans’ which have emerged from Israel in recent days? Plans for Israeli settlements in Gaza?

No I haven't seen any plans to create Israeli settlements in Gaza and I hope that isn't the realistic plan. I have seen the maps showing the intended buffer zones and indeed that 1km area along the length of Gaza, bordering Israel, is flattened and will hopefully be mined too to deter any breaches into Israel.

The plan is not to displace the Gazans into Sinai (I know there is a small group of Israeli politicians calling for this, but it is far from the mainstream Israeli opinion)

As far as I understand the long term plan is to remove Hamas from power by destroying their fighting power and infrastructure, Then hopefully having a moderate governing body take over who will advocate for the removal of terror ideology and prioritise the needs of the population

But where are displaced Palestinians supposed to go?

They will receive funding to rebuild. From Israel and other nations.
This can only happen when Hamas is gone because if not they will take that money and use it for tunnels, rockets and rpgs as they have been doing since 2005

Not as far as I'm concerned and not as far as thousands others are concerned.

They are an occupying force not a defense force.

There have been numerous announcements of what they are planning to do there. Particularly beach front properties.

They will never remove Hamas. Hamas came about due to the occupation and the crimes that Israel were committing. Did you know that nearly all are meant to be orphans? All Israel have done is breed more hatred from so many, many people. I think it is obvious that someone who has lost everything will want to fight back.