To say that just because someone is opposed to " Trans Acceptance Without Exception" it doesn't mean that they are GC or Feminist.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

And it's important to understand the difference?

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Radical Feminist POV. Gender is abstract. A societal construct that can be accepted, rejected or adapted throughout life. Gender is different to biological sex which is scientifically binary and immutable so Gender is not really important and not a stable basis for law.

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Feminist POV. Gender might have a biological component. Fine with gender ideology long as biological women's rights, security and single sex spaces are safe with no encroachment from males.

Some oppose Trans Activism because it goes against their religious beliefs. It does not make them GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because they believe in stereotypical gender roles. Men should be men and women should be women. This is not GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because of misogyny. They hate women. They hate men pretending to be women because it debases men. This is not GC or feminist.

Am i being Unreasonable to say that just because someone is opposed to TRA "acceptance without exception", it doesnt mean they are Gender Critical or feminists. And we need to understand the difference.

To answer the other bit, I would like all males to respect the need of women to have single sex spaces for privacy and dignity
Decent males already do this

Yes ANY man, however he presents, is a danger to women if he thinks it is his 'right' to go in to our sex based spaces. Men who respect women and girls do not do this.

Transwomen have been sharing your spaces for, like, ever and you just never noticed because they pass so well.

But I mean it's not untrue. Trans women have never been banned from women's toilets and changing rooms. Other spaces have always used their professional judgment, such as prisons.
Legislation to try and ban trans people from spaces would be thankfully unenforceable as far as I can see.

So that's what I'm asking. Do you want such legislation, and how would you enforce it? I just want to understand what the end goal is.

Editted a bit for clarity.

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Radical Feminist POV. Gender is abstract. A societal construct that can be accepted, rejected or adapted throughout life. Gender is different to biological sex which is scientifically binary and immutable so Gender is not really important and not a stable basis for law.

This isn't a point of view. These are all just facts. Beyond that I don't really know what you're asking.

So that's what I'm asking. Do you want such legislation, and how would you enforce it? I just want to understand what the end goal is.

No, most of us don't want "bathroom bills" which have never been a thing here. We want women's sex based rights to be reflected in policy making from the top down and for all men to have the common decency to recognise that women and girls need them to stay out of their spaces.

@Rainbowshit

Oh but you are a TERF. You don't think a transwoman with a penis should have the right to undress beside our daughters.

You know, I don't think in such black and white terms. I'm not a TERF - I'm not transphobic in general and i don't identify as a radical feminist - but I don't want transwomen in dressing rooms, no.

THIS.

“But I mean it's not untrue. Trans women have never been banned from women's toilets and changing rooms. Other spaces have always used their professional judgment, such as prisons.”

I'm not nearly as articulate as other people here, so forgive me if I can’t get my point across well, but…

..isn’t this issue on a very different scale to what it was 10-20 + years ago? Prisons/hospitals etc managing a very small percentage of trans people is different to managing a larger proportion of trans people. adapting a service to meet the needs of one or two trans people is different to changing policy etc so that a while services approach has to change. Also isn’t the concept of “trans” changing. Again 10-20 + years ago we only spoke about people being trans who had “lived as” the opposite sex for some time and now it seems that the discussion about people being trans is more based on someone’s changeable inner sense of their own gender - which is undefinable.

We want it to be socially inappropriate for misogynistic males to take roles where they have power over vulnerable women, for eg the one in charge of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre.

And this makes you a TERF in the eyes of the trans activists. They will label you whether you like it or not. It's what happens to women who say no.

@DewHopper

And this makes you a TERF in the eyes of the trans activists. They will label you whether you like it or not. It's what happens to women who say no.

And you, apparently

@DrBalenciaga

Do you honestly think every woman slurred as a "TERF", bullied, abused, threatened and forced out of their jobs "identifies as a radical feminist"? 

@Ladybrrrd - public toilets etc have been single sex by societal contract, not law. There was no enforcement necessary beyond a polite “sir, this is the Ladies , the Gents is through there” when someone used the wrong facilities.

The only transsexual I knew used the disabled toilet so as not to cause an issue for women.

It is a very recent development (since Stonewall decided to become a trans rights organisation and warp interpretation of the Equalities Act) that trans-identifying males feel entitled to use women’s spaces.

Oh dear. Have you not realised that it's not you that gets to decide if you're a TERF or not? Even believing that humans can't change sex is enough to make you a TERF.

Here's a little food for thought for you (gender) 'critical thinkers' out there - see how your thinking has been shaped by opportunistic right wing rhetoric.

https://www.ft.com/content/0832548c-3750-4500-82c2-455e6f92faa7

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/conservatives/2023/02/conservatives-done-enough-women

(you can register for three free articles a month to read the New Statesman piece)

And here is the Labour stance on the issue:

Labour in July said it was right to require a doctor’s opinion in order to legally change gender. The party also said it supported the existence of women-only spaces reserved for biological women, in certain contexts, in line with current equalities law.

And Boris Johnson champions sexual predator Donald Trump. They are the danger, not trans women.

What do you mean by pro trans women?

When trans women’s ‘wants’ conflict with the womens rights and safety, where do you fall.

I asked you to give examples of anti trans posts. I don’t see them as anti trans, so saying ‘read the thread’ is a cop out. That suggests you can’t find any.

You said they exist. So where are they?

Well let's here from some Labour MPs on the issue then, shall we? That'll put to bed all this right wing propaganda! What do the great and the good of Labour think on this issue?

Oh.

Jesus wept. You can be concerned about the impact on women the TRA movement has and still know that Boris Johnson is a twat.

Are you suggesting women can only have opinions, until someone tries to use the cause for their own agenda. At that point we become part of that group?

Thats not pro women. Telling women they can only have an opinion and concerns, until someone hijacks it.

What do you say to GC gay people? Who feel the TRAs have hijacked their cause?

But most women who have been labelled TERFs are exactly the same as you.

I don't hate trans people and I think anyone should have the right to wear and love what and who they want.

My bottom line though is that for women to be able to fully participate in society there are situations where sex matters and we should have single sex spaces and sport.

This makes me aligned with the far right according to posters on this thread.

What is the difference between what I believe and what you believe which makes me a TERF and you not a TERF?

It remains a left wing issue, GC feminism is incompatible with right wing politics. The move to turn it into a umbrella term, so widely encompassing that it includes Trump, Lawrence Fox, the Tory party, the religious right is cynical and calculated.

I can't read the print as it's so small.

However this is Labour's current stance on the issue which I think strikes a good balance between being inclusive but taking seriously the safety of biological women:

Labour in July said it was right to require a doctor’s opinion in order to legally change gender. The party also said it supported the existence of women-only spaces reserved for biological women, in certain contexts, in line with current equalities law.

Trans.

It's now an umbrella for people with dysphoria and men who cross dress AKA transvestites and AGPs

None of these males belong in womens spaces.

It is not a political belief.

Terf is another catch-all phrase. It means Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist. The vast majority of people who get called Terfs are not Radical Feminists.

I'm not transphobic in general and i don't identify as a radical feminist - but I don't want transwomen in dressing rooms, no.

That absolutely IS transphobic according to the TRAs.

I really wonder what those attempting to slur those of us who believe in female rights to single sex spaces as right wing want to achieve? You say you don't want transwomen in female changing rooms. Why are you attemping to shut down female voices asking for our rights to be upheld?

This issue is not going to die down. No matter how many slurs you sling.

It's a catch all phrase now, anyone who doesn't believe that twaw are terfs. The rf bit is irrelevant now just the te counts so if you are trans exclusionary you are a terf. Terf itself is an incorrect phrase, I'm not anti trans in women's space I'm anti males in women's spaces.

This is the same issue as the op, its about grouping people together due to one belief. Therefore the poster who doesn't think penis people should be changing next to little girls is exactly the same as trump. Its just not true